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Skribs

Classes still exist

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This is supposed to be a classless realm, but it feels to me like a lot of classes still exist.  Basically, if picking ability X requires that you select several other specific abilities to make it work best, then it feels like there is still a class.

  • Most feral talents and abilities are useless unless you shapeshift.  If you do shapeshift, feral is basically where you'll get most of your stuff.
  • Hunter abilities are obviously your only option for ranged (but that was predicted ahead of time)
  • Most classes that share an element do not share talents.  Shadow Priest and Affliction Warlock don't stack together, where most Spriest talents say "Your Priest Shadow Spells", for example.  Fire and destruction, frost and elemental, these are all examples of things that don't work.  You couldn't hybridize an Arcane Mage and a Balance Druid to make a pure arcane class, and expect the talents to work.
  • Most retribution paladin procs only proc off of Paladin abilities, such as Seals and Art of War. 
  • Righteous Fury basically requires that you use holy spells, as opposed to if it affected all spells for spell tank in any school.
  • A lot of healing procs that are just supposed to be generic healing procs in a class system, require that class for the classless system.

Instead of a classless realm, at this point in time, it feels like the classes still exist, but you get a bit more freedom in how you build them.  It doesn't feel like a true classless realm, but a bit more like Final Fantasy 14, where you get your core class abilities, and then you can pick cross-class abilities.

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Point 3 is my main issue with this server. If they would stop restricting talents to class specific spells it would feel a lot more "Classless." You are right as of now, feels like you can customize what spells you take but talents, which are half of your design, are restricted.

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True. There should be much more synergy between class abilities and talents then there is now. Hire a guy who knows all the classes very well and could lead you to building a true classless realm, or start listening to forum suggestions. 

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The irony here is that you are asking for a different kind of 'class' system without really asking for it.

If all of the Fire Talents stacked then people would just make a Fire Mage Template, sure it would have TE's from 3-6 different former 'classes' in it but it would become its own class pretty quickly.  What the devs are having to deal with is having both an open system and one where things don't go off the rails.

Recently I was trying to stack both Blood Frenzy and Savage Combat.  With Deep Wounds/Pounce/Mangle and the Poison AE as part of a Cat Form template, this would be +8% physical damage for 4 TE.  As an example, I am already critting for 2,100+ with mangle, another 4% on this would be approx +100 more damage on each Mangle.  There are more things like this however if you went extreme in a build and stacked everything together the balance would start to go out of wack.

And, 'templates' which would become pseudo-classes would appear and become the new thing (at least for high end or PvP).

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57 minutes ago, Jida said:

The irony here is that you are asking for a different kind of 'class' system without really asking for it.

If all of the Fire Talents stacked then people would just make a Fire Mage Template, sure it would have TE's from 3-6 different former 'classes' in it but it would become its own class pretty quickly.  What the devs are having to deal with is having both an open system and one where things don't go off the rails.

Recently I was trying to stack both Blood Frenzy and Savage Combat.  With Deep Wounds/Pounce/Mangle and the Poison AE as part of a Cat Form template, this would be +8% physical damage for 4 TE.  As an example, I am already critting for 2,100+ with mangle, another 4% on this would be approx +100 more damage on each Mangle.  There are more things like this however if you went extreme in a build and stacked everything together the balance would start to go out of wack.

And, 'templates' which would become pseudo-classes would appear and become the new thing (at least for high end or PvP).

But that would give you more options than right now.  Right now you basically have all the old classes unless you're melee.  Melee abilities stack really well with each other.  But if you want to make a fire caster, you get fire mage stuff.  If you want a shadow dot caster, you have to pick between affliction warlock and shadow priest.  You can't really mix and match.

So if you go by what I'm asking for, then yes, you might have Fire, and Shadow, etc. classes.  However, those would blur the lines between the classes from retail WoW, whereas right now you just toe the class line and then get utility and more spell power from other classes.

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Agreed, I think we are on the same page but splitting hairs a bit.  If this was truly an open system then everything would work with everything else and the balance would be there.

I don't think it is possible and 20+ years of MMO playing for a lot of us proves that balance is harder than we all think it should be.

As stated previously, AE/Spell points are mostly interchangeable with some being tied to pets/stances/shapeshifting and others not working as intended yet.  TE/Talents are ways of increasing the power of AE/Spell choices with some being 100% specific to the old classes and some not working at all as intended.

If they made TE/Talents all interchangeable then I think the first thing that would happen is that they would get nerfed.  For Toad Wart I stacked all of the Agility boosting TE's and they all work together as intended.  This is over 4 different 'old classes' and using their individual Agi buffers.  Not sure if this was intended or wanted by the Devs as I am closing in on 800 Agi without any other potions/effects on.  The net effect of this is Mangle crits over 2k, ~50% crit rate and ~40% dodge.

If all of the Fire TE's stacked would that mean they would add up to 1 hit Fire Spells on other players?  If it did then each one would get toned down and then you would have to get all of them to get back to normal (reducing choices).

Example of this is Frost Brand, it just got a -30% base damage nerf while the TE to boost it got a 10%/20%/30% damage increase.  So to get back to what it was doing the other day, you have to spend 3 more TE to do so.  Another one is Prowl/Sneak where the base AE/Spell is worthless and it takes at least 5 TE in MoD to make it worthwhile.  I think this is where the Devs are headed, AE/Spells are going to be worked to be as interchangeable as possible while the TE's are going to be used to balance out nerfs/increases which are needed on those spells.

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I understand that some talents will boost individual spells, as that's how it worked in live (look at Improved Chain Heal as an example).  However, talents that boost your shadow DoTs should boost all your shadow DoTs, and not be class-locked.

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That's why we're in beta, some class mask spell are really hard and takes time to "de-class" it. But there are some talents that needs to be class masked anyway.

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It's kind of depressing when the best builds are just "stack crit" or "stack dodge" because nothing else stacks as mentioned in the OP. You can't "stack fire damage" soooo.... yeah.

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59 minutes ago, lunababy said:

It's kind of depressing when the best builds are just "stack crit" or "stack dodge" because nothing else stacks as mentioned in the OP. You can't "stack fire damage" soooo.... yeah.

I completely agree.  My friend is working on a fire build which basically gets +75% intellect and then converts a lot of int into MP5 and SP.  I've looked into tank builds that basically just get 30% or more dodge and parry because you can stack that much avoidance. 

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I might be missing something here but are you guy only talking about stacking mage-offensive abilities?

Most of the other items for all builds will stack now like stats, defenses, manipulations, etc.  None of the offensive items though stack very well.  You can get a little boost out of some things at a high cost to the template but it won't return all that much.

What it sounds like is that you are either wanting more DPS (which can be done by increasing the AE/Spell itself after arguing your case with the devs) or you can add more damaging skills.  If you are wanting to get everything that has anythign to do with Fire at all and then try to stack them all up, I don't think that will happen anytime soon, especially for offensive skills.

The way all of us learned to increase out DPS on this server was to get 'other' AE/TE which had synergy with a build and then with everything going off/procing and being cast - you see the damage go up.  But we also learned quick that trying to pump 1 skill only doesn't work on most builds and/or you quickly grow out of that as you level up and have more points to spare.

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What I'm talking about is if I want to make a shadow DoT based character, and instead of going with all spriest abilities or all affliction abilities, I want to mix Corruption and Curse of Agony with Shadow Word: Pain and Vampiric Touch.  Now, I've got a lot of talents in shadow that say "when your Priest shadow damage over time effects deal damage..." or "you heal the group for X% of your shadow priest damage spells", or affliction talents that do similar things "increases the damage of your Warlock shadow spells."

My problem is that a lot of talents are limited to the class from which the talent came, and it doesn't feel classless in that regard.

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I will repeat myself, because I feel like some didn't read what I wrote:

" That's why we're in beta, some class mask spell are really hard and takes time to "de-class" it. But there are some talents that needs to be class masked anyway."

True, there are talent that need to be "de-mask", but it's not that easy and it is a reason why melee does better than most caster build. The server is still in beta, the team was small, now they recruited more dev, bug fixing and modification to talent will now be a bit faster.

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It might be the perception that since they both are "Shadow" then somehow they should work together.  The damage boosters for cold in the Mage section do not boost Frost Brand even though FB is 'spell damage'.  They make it clear that it won't be boosted by saying "Mage" spells but you could argue the Shamans are Mages and FB is a cold spell.  If all of the cold based boosters worked with FB then it would throw it completely out of whack.

i have not played a Shadow based character, what are you thoughts on what would happen if both trees were interchangeable?  Do you foresee any issues with balance?

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The problem is that this is supposed to be classless, but if I pick Vampiric Touch, it is foolish to pick any shadow dots that aren't priest dots because the talents don't overlap. So the priest class exists on the classless realm.

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For me, I think part of this has to deal with all the boosts they have. Too many abilities that boost Spell power by intellect, by spirit, by strength all being repeated through different trees in different ways let alone the flat boosts.


I think their best bets would be to prune all of these from the talent trees and put a trimmed down version in the general tab. Then you choose in there for the boosts and then the trees may have boosts to specific elements and such, no one is chasing through all the trees for the increases and the same for the melee boosts to strength and agility.


Once all those boosts are gone, they are more freed up to boost things by element and not class. And would free up many talent points to allow players to more fill out their build instead of just stuffing everything into one thing at the expense to all other aspects with no utility.

Edited by Fugus

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3 hours ago, Skribs said:

The problem is that this is supposed to be classless, but if I pick Vampiric Touch, it is foolish to pick any shadow dots that aren't priest dots because the talents don't overlap. So the priest class exists on the classless realm.

Honestly do not know what to tell you at this point.

We can either have generic Talents which do Generic things which will make for a Generic experience or you can have varied Talents which target specific spells/AE to boost them.  The "Priest Class" does not exist in any form on the server.  There is a Priest AE tree and Priest TE tree which you can select things from.

Just like there is a Balance Druid and Feral Druid and Restoration Druid AE/TE set of trees.

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But if the priest abilities are only linked to priest talents, then it does exist. You could have talents that benefit individual spells, talents that affect categories like "over time" or "direct", magic school, instant vs. With a cast time, etc, and generic talents.

Something that affects all shadow dots wouldn't be generic, but it would be classless.

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14 minutes ago, Skribs said:

But if the priest abilities are only linked to priest talents, then it does exist. You could have talents that benefit individual spells, talents that affect categories like "over time" or "direct", magic school, instant vs. With a cast time, etc, and generic talents.

Something that affects all shadow dots wouldn't be generic, but it would be classless.

Im so so about how the trees are atm. So right now u can pick a lot of +% shadow damage, not just for priest or just for warlock. So while yes it does narrow choices, it also let's you buff specific abilities without them having to Nerf the talent in general. If all talents increased damage in the school vs class abilities you could get some very high damage casters, they already have high damage melee and need to reel the casters in closer to melee, but general blanket +% may be to much. Though I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more synergy for caster (and feral).

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Yeah Skribs, I am not really disagreeing with you on what could be done.  I think they could rework a lot of things and probably will as the game progresses to future versions.

Talents do not = class,... Talents = modifiers

"Requires Cat Form" is a completely legitimate way of balancing out that particular form while not giving the same things to other forms.  

Example, Predatory Instincts lets you increase critical damage by 15% for 3 TE and it reduces AoE damage by 30%

If that was not bound to Cat Form then everyone would take it, and it would break the balance.  The only reason why this is available to Cat Form is because a lot of other things are not available.  You can choose to pick it up or not of course but it only makes sense for Cat Form to have this option.  This does not mean that there is a "Druid Class" or a "Feral Class", it just means that if you choose to select Cat Form then you can augment it as you see fit.

Same with Shadow or Fire or Cold or anything else.  Maybe it is because I came from a 100% open ended game and never played WoW that I can accept this easily and maybe experienced WoW players can't wrap their head around it?  You can't go 100% generic on the Talents without ruining both balance and diversity of templates.

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You're bringing up a good point and it's one that we have discussed a lot as well.

To give you guys some insight in how we balance it all and why there's good and bad things about synergies I'll start off by listing some things that we always need to weigh against each other especially when it comes to synergies.

  • Fun and interesting synergy between classes/talents/spell schools.
  • Build diversity and the ability to specialize.
  • Letting strong spells/talents stay and feel strong.
  • For the game to feel familiar.

So first there's the synergy and the declassmasking. What should work together and what should not. While at first glance it might seem great to let most things work with most things, with synergies everywhere, the dangerous thing it leads to is actually build limitations. Build limitation in the way that some specs will outperform others significantly.

Build diversity is one of the most important things for us because we don't just want you to be able to pick whatever you want, we want you to feel strong and special when you find the right build for you. There have been times where we have discussed and thought of allowing a certain synergy but then realized that it'd actually just be limiting and make a certain specialization weaker and less interesting. That's one of the the main reasons why we need to be a bit careful with where we allow synergies.

Another way to allow a synergy is by nerfing an ability or talent. However with such a change we might also make an impactful and specialized ability into an ability that works for several builds but now also feels bland and boring which is something we of course don't want.

Last but not least, the familiar feeling. We can go crazy and do all kind of custom synergies or whatever we want! Some people love that but some also aren't big fans of it. While we do have some very custom features we still want the game and abilities in some senses to feel familiar and recognizable.

Now with all the boring talk about the troubles of synergy of course we aren't done with declassmasking and creating synergies. There's definitely some more synergies that should happen and while some can be hard to implement I can assure you that more will come. We are also of course still open for declassmask and synergy suggestions.

Compared to how it looked 6 months ago there are so many more viable and used PvP builds that we've not just seen ourselves but our analytic tools tells us that's the case as well. From our recent testing there are a lot of different PvE builds that are very close to each other in damage output. This kind of stability in build diversity also further allows us to focus on implementing new and interesting synergies!

Edited by Nerf

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Outside of actively nerfing an ability to balance things out, how would allowing a synergy make a build weaker?

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My main gripe is how heavily classmasked all but one school of magic is for casters.

Shadow, whilst having some limitations, for the most part can be built a few different ways, and it's a solid choice for hybridisation due to all the sustain/instants it provides as a tree.

What's that? You want to play a Nature oriented caster? Arcane? Lol na m8, have fun what is essentially rebuilding a WotLK spec/experience. Fire is much the same, go Fire Mage or go home.

Frost sorta gets a pass because realistically only Frost Mages had any sort of claim to the school without DK's, and has some nice synergies with one off talents in other trees such as Frozen Power, but even then Shatter only working for Mage abilities, masked crit modifiers? Quite tedious.

The Holy Paladin crit damage modifier seems all but worthless because there just aren't enough abilities to take advantage of. Sure it's nice to see bigger Judgements, but Judgements are never a core portion of your damage nomatter how you spin it. Consecration? Eh. Holy Shock? Eh, maybe. Things like Divine Storm perhaps would be nice with it, but there comes a point where you're just rebuilding a Ret Paladin because that's the only way you get any benefit for your 5 TE spent. There isn't a core set of skills with Holy Pallies like there are Priests with which to take advantage of it. It'd be nice to see the Holy crit damage talents unmasked so that something can rival Frost if you want to smack something really hard in a way that doesn't involve rerolling Melee.

Having an entire spec near enough dead in the water in Demonology doesn't help either.

Edited by Sely

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On 2017-06-07 at 5:15 AM, Skribs said:

Outside of actively nerfing an ability to balance things out, how would allowing a synergy make a build weaker?

I could've been a bit more clear. What I meant was that the build becomes weaker in comparison to others. If for example Nature's Grace would proc from all spells a Wrath/Starfire build would lose a bit of its edge.

 

I'd also like to generally point out that a shadow build does have several synergies between Priest and Warlock.

Edited by Nerf

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