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Beastly

Will PvP'ers always be behind on LS?

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Thank you all for participating here, sincerely!

I have forwarded some of these to the appropriate staff members.

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38 minutes ago, Traxx said:

As well with adding a downside to going in big raid groups, some penalty should be added to groups higher than 5, and increased penalty to bigger the groups are.
There simply need to be some kind of drawback from going in large raid groups.

 

There already is a drawback with larger groups, smaller % chance at getting gear.

People raiding in groups of 20-25 to get some epics from a boss is essentially the same concept as a big group going in for a Cache, except one is a scripted PvE event and the other is a wPvP battle.

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This is the type of high quality post and discussion we love. Thank you. This is great feedback. I wanted to drop by and let you know I've read everything posted so far, and I want to put together a proper response and get feedback from the Ascension team as well.

I think we should be more clear on our direction, and I will start taking more responsibility for that.

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I made a forum account, just to comment on this, and i've got to say that @Beastly is MVP! Solid post, I really enjoyed reading this whole thing, and I can't wait to see whats coming out of this.

Also, kudos to the Ascension team @Kaladin for responding and showing interest in this topic, it's time for the PvP underdogs to shine and think we can achieve that together. 

Keep up the good work, stay positive towards the project and let's help each other in the process of perfecting it. 

/Guccidiaper 

 

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I removed a very hard to decipher post and multiple replies to that post from the same two people that were threatening to totally derail this great discussion. Carry on.

Edited by Kaladin

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How about some form of actual rewards from Honor Points?

The ability to buy gear with Honor would be awesome.

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7 hours ago, Beastly said:

At the moment some of the best gear available is only obtainable through instanced PvE. There's no means of getting this gear otherwise, as PvE'ers will never go out in the world with their BWL gear. (No, AH isn't an option)

If these players never even leave the city with their BWL gear on how are they even getting an advantage? 

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7 hours ago, Beastly said:

At the moment some of the best gear available is only obtainable through instanced PvE. There's no means of getting this gear otherwise, as PvE'ers will never go out in the world with their BWL gear. (No, AH isn't an option)

If these players never even leave the city with their BWL gear on how are they even getting an advantage? 

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7 hours ago, Beastly said:

At the moment some of the best gear available is only obtainable through instanced PvE. There's no means of getting this gear otherwise, as PvE'ers will never go out in the world with their BWL gear. (No, AH isn't an option)

If these players never even leave the city with their BWL gear on how are they even getting an advantage? 

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7 hours ago, Beastly said:

At the moment some of the best gear available is only obtainable through instanced PvE. There's no means of getting this gear otherwise, as PvE'ers will never go out in the world with their BWL gear. (No, AH isn't an option)

If these players never even leave the city with their BWL gear on how are they even getting an advantage? 

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11 minutes ago, Kaladin said:

I removed a very hard to decipher post and multiple replies to that post from the same two people that were threatening to totally derail this great discussion. Carry on.

Ok I'll post it again because it was grade school level reading.

This time I'll make it really fancy so everyone can read it.

The following is a dialogue. The following has two parts a part where im impersonating the arguments I recieve often and my answers to them. I will leave the arguments in quotations and my response out of quotations so it is super easy for everyone to understand no matter what their level of reading comprehension is.

Why is this post not short?

Because I prefer to instantly respond to bad arguments in my post rather than listen to people type random triggered nonsense and provide no argument or value, and often I've already prove most of them wrong.

An example for those having difficulty reading, reading english, or with reading comprehension:

Impersonated Argument: " Superfastguy ( IM SUPER FAST GUY IF YOU DIDNT UNDERSTAND) you big dummy head ...."

My response with valid points: OK WELL...

Now that we are on the same page, let me continue with my addition to this post.

I start by saying:

  PVE doesn't belong on a high risk server.   

"Superfastguy you big dummy head I love PVE we need it, you're stupid."

OK, I understand some people enjoy PVE content. The best gear on our high risk server should not be given in loot tables by NPCs though. This simply creates Sargeras 2.0, or in this case... an uneasy feeling about LS. We have dominate PVE players and PVP suddenly becomes PVE dependent. This is a big NONO for a high risk server. 

"Superfastguy you big idiot dumb brain, the PVP is not PVE gear dependent you can get your gear by killing us!"

OK, why do the players, who the high risk atmosphere supports, have to fight uphill battles against overtuned stats and damage (percentages from our classless system provide far bigger gaps between a geared player and a lesser geared player than any other server would normally see) just to get to the point where the fight is finally even? They shouldn't that is the answer. We need TOP gear provided to PVP players.

"Superfastguy you're as dumb as they come just PVE, we work really hard and get reworded for it!"

Well, that is wonderful. I get you feel you work extremely hard hitting NPCs everyweek until you can roll over all the PVP players with your huge handicap gear advantage. I agree, sure. You deserve the TOP gear for your efforts. Why...anyone who puts in that same effort should be rewarded the top gear! Wait, why don't we use that to destroy the disgusting double standard with this idea! PVP players who put in the PVP effort equivalent to the PVE effort of PVE players should be rewarded the TOP gear! 

"Superfastguy we put in so much hard work you big idiot! How can a PVP player put in the same work we do hitting NPCS!?"

The good news is, this system was already created! Yes! Honor! Wow! Imagine PVP players get the ability to PVP enough that they get TOP gear by earning it with maybe player world kill tokens instead! Endless possibilities! PVP requirable gear on a high risk open world pvp server BRILLIANT! 

"Superfastguy, you are one stupid monkey. There will just be world gank squads and no one will be able to kill the bigger groups running around farming pvp tokens!"

Well, if we pretend for a second that isn't just the equivalent of PVE where you need a group of players who pvp well to get the TOP gear...then I will sort of agree. But, alas, I have a solution! Open world PVP groups larger than 5 players do NOT receive TOKENS! Maybe even 2-5 player groups SPLIT tokens! And tokens are tagged like mob loot! But I don't know the capabilities of our dev team so I will leave it at this and say 5 player groups max for tokens. 

"Superfastguy, you freakin koala bear looking mutha...., so now you don't want guild to PVP together!? You don't want big battles?!"

Well, tbh, I find this a valid point too, however, I think I have a solution for that too! This group rule should remain general for all zones outside of Crow's treasure areas, and future events. Infact, future events such as timed base seiges (just capture the base, think eye of the storm except it gives maybe a buff or a chest for winning large group or guild) could capitilize on the fact that guilds might want to pvp together and get tokens. Basically, there should be an option for guilds to pvp and see rewards for it but new players shouldnt be hit by something map roaming death wave of 6-20 players.

I'll stop here...

Someone may wonder why my points touche on LS high risk PVP or PVE realm? and PVP PLAYERS MORE GEAR PLEASE!...then goes far beyond.

I agree at first it seems im going to far in a different direction BUT we can't stop the discusion at here are two questions and "oh ya cool we'll try and figure it out"....

We need to figure out how to push the realm in a direction we want. I choose a realm that has PVP focus with PVE option and PVP players get the same rewards as PVE players... (despite my want for complete destruction of all of pve... but thats a different idea altogether i suppose...).

Forum posts need solutions posted not more wonder and waiting. Here are some solutions... decide if you like them or dont. offer yours. and we respond. that is how we fix this all.

TL;DR for people who have a hard time reading.

TL;DR

PVP PLAYERS NEED TOP GEAR TOO

HIGH RISK SERVER SHOULD BE PVP ORIENTED

INSIDE ARE SOLUTIONS

PLEASE READ AND RESPOND WITH THOUGHT OUT IDEAS ONLY

 

this post may be less detailed than my last because I do not remember it word for word incase you had read that one.

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What honor gear would do is actually kill the wPvP and everyone would be grinding BG's. They are adding pvp gear but tweaked so that it doesn't kill wPvP. My suggestion to this topic is that it could  be added some sort of "coin" from the chest that players drop when they're killed that could be exchanged for the epic pvp gear back in vanilla days, and blue gear could be obtainable with honor points, but actually making it so you need a decent amount of coins to get the gear. Epic PvP gear was actually way better for PvP than the PvE gear due to all the stamina it had. It would combine both worlds because some pieces of the gear were actually BiS for PvE and viceversa. Sorry but english is not my mother tongue I hope i explained myself well enough so that it can be understood what I mean. /Salute

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4 minutes ago, Nepe said:

What honor gear would do is actually kill the wPvP and everyone would be grinding BG's. They are adding pvp gear but tweaked so that it doesn't kill wPvP. My suggestion to this topic is that it could  be added some sort of "coin" from the chest that players drop when they're killed that could be exchanged for the epic pvp gear back in vanilla days, and blue gear could be obtainable with honor points, but actually making it so you need a decent amount of coins to get the gear. Epic PvP gear was actually way better for PvP than the PvE gear due to all the stamina it had. It would combine both worlds because some pieces of the gear were actually BiS for PvE and viceversa. Sorry but english is not my mother tongue I hope i explained myself well enough so that it can be understood what I mean. /Salute

Ah yes good IDEA!  WORLD PVP COINS. I touch upon this in my post just above!

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5 hours ago, Stuart said:

Thank you all for participating here, sincerely!

I have forwarded some of these to the appropriate staff members.

bless up laddy

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I'm not one to complain about full loot, as I come from a game that punishes players -much harder- when you die (i.e. Losing everything you have equipped and in your bags on death).

 

But it's pretty crap to be out in the world only to be swarmed by guys in full raid gear only to be instantly popped. Yeah, people can say use a better build or 'learn to play' but its downright atrocious just getting instantly killed in four hits by players who you know didn't stick their neck out to get the gear they're in. I think PvE and PvP players all have their place on a 'hardcore' realm with full-loot / FFA styled combat, but not when one group of players have a clear advantage over the other just because they can safely enter an instanced area to acquire gear.

 

The best gear should be acquired out in the un-instanced version of the world. Just my two cents, no one should be safe getting 'the best gear'. Now after expressing my issue, and how I feel about it. Let me spit ball some ideas off the top of my head. (All opinions, feel free to build off of them or completely disagree with them. Not saying they're good)

 

1.) Make custom mobs / mob spawns with their own unique loot tables, which yield higher rewards. Make them tough. If you add multiple locations like this - players will have 'spawns' to check for players. If players know of a location they can go to that yields consistently 'decent to good' gear - people wouldn't have to scour the map to check random high level spawns. Also with this idea, theoretically speaking... This would also help stop the 'Veteran Level 60s' (i.e. Geared) players from stomping on the 'Fresh Level 60s' (i.e. Not Geared) in the current 'high level' spawns. Meaning fresh 60s (theoretically) could catch up without having to go join a 'zerg' to get what they need in safety. Again, this obviously doesn't stop higher geared players from ganking fresh players. But it would be more worthwhile for the higher geared players to check these 'spawns' for equally or even higher geared players for the PvP they want.

  • Easier and more well-known areas for consistent, active areas for both PvP and drops.
  • Creates a 'next stage' for the higher-end players rather than having them sit in the current spawns. (Which typically involves ganking fresh 60s)
  • Adds another layer onto the server which wouldn't be offered anywhere else. (Could be seen as both good and bad)
  • Allows the staff team more creative freedom rather than working with old world content.

2.) Crafting and gathering. I know a lot of you are blood thirsty and plenty of you have been saying 'hardcore PvP server' and it should only focus its attention on promoting more activity out in the game world, so more PvP occurs, with drops being good from both mobs and players. So every one is happy. My next idea would be add another layer onto crafting and gathering. Create custom resources to gather, along with custom recipes which could make gear. I would make gathering the resources much slower and have them concentrated in certain areas like the aforementioned custom mobs / mob spawns. There is no assured way of making the game world -CONSTANTLY- active. So in the down time of clearing and or checking these mob spawns, you go do a bit of gathering -- Boom! You're running into other players who are out gathering these resources to fashion their new gizmos.

  • Adds something to do in players down times, while still being out actively in the world.
  • Has the chance to proc an encounter with more players.
  • Gives those who enjoy the gathering and crafting system more incentive to pick up professions and use them.
  • If someone isn't that great of a PvP'er, but wants to help get some better gear than from the current spawns; he can go out and risk getting attacked while gathering these valuable resources.

3.) World bosses / World rares. These sort of exist? But having something more frequent would be pretty cool, as to have groups come together to fight over a boss that spawns somewhere in the world. I think these should drop some of the best gear you can obtain as it would require a very well coordinated group. I could only imagine the amount of chaos that would come from such a thing happening. They would obviously have to be adjusted to be powerful, and not something a guild could fly to and hold down for five minutes and leave after killing it.

  • Would create more political play in the world, even the other two ideas would create such.
  • Sets apart the good players from the very good players, and rewards them for being coordinated.
  • Could potentially serve as a replacement for raids (?)

 

Again, these are just all 'ideas' with my own thought put into them. Meaning I like them. It would be cool to see some of this stuff put into action as I think it would promote more healthy gameplay, keeping people out in the world active rather than running around in Stormwind or Orgrimmar talking about that gank they got a week ago and trash talking players. (Not that'll ever stop..) All opinions. Some of you may read over it and think I read your mind, while others want to bash me with a cudgel and tell me how STUPID I am for even SUGGESTING things like this. If anything - take this away from my ideas. I dislike instanced content, where players can freely going into a safe space to get gear. Here are some more miscellaneous ideas that I either think would be impossible (or wouldn't happen), wouldn't know how to execute, or just think are to 'grand'.

  • Just get rid of raids. Facilitate content into the world, not through instanced runs.
  • Remove instanced content (Or as much as you can). Not entirely sure how you could uninstance dungeons themselves, as I don't think it would be entirely possible. (Considering the dungeons themselves are on their own maps) This isn't me saying 'Get rid of dungeons.' Just the fact they are instanced.
  • Make guards stronger in towns. It's kind of silly watching people get ganked inside of towns and watching the single guy who did it waltz out with thirty guys attacking him. It's not even remotely skill based. (Make it harder to gank inside of guarded areas, but don't prevent it entirely)

 

Anyways. Thanks for reading this if you do, and if you disagree; provide come constructive criticism to my ideas. Only way we can progress to a better server.

 

 

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@Beastly Ah I see, I didn't think about it effecting BGs when I asked the question. But at the same time, BGs aren't a part of high-risk either. Don't get me wrong I am not disagreeing with you, but I do think that there is a clear disadvantage to basically raid logging because you run a huge risk of getting to that said raid. Has anyone camped out raid entrances for Raiders to strip them of their BWL gear?

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1 hour ago, Vellmax said:

@Beastly Ah I see, I didn't think about it effecting BGs when I asked the question. But at the same time, BGs aren't a part of high-risk either. Don't get me wrong I am not disagreeing with you, but I do think that there is a clear disadvantage to basically raid logging because you run a huge risk of getting to that said raid. Has anyone camped out raid entrances for Raiders to strip them of their BWL gear?

They'll just enter ubrs if you try to gank them upstairs or they'll just jump into the lava and suicide if you gank them near the summoning stone.

Point being is that it's almost impossible to gank a bwl raid. Unless you gank them before they even enter Blackrock mountain which is further made difficult as blackrock mountain has 2 entrances. Also people often use "summoning" alts to summon their raid right infront of the entrance.

So in the INCREDIBLY UNLIKELY scenario that  you manage to catch a bwl raid on their way to Blackrock mountain in badlands for example YOU ARE STILL facing 10 players in their best gear, mostly in their pvp spec, coordinated and communicating through voice. So you will have to bring ATLEAST like 8 players with superior skill, decent gear, decent pvp builds and voice chat to even have a chance at ganking that raid. And the problem of how rare it is to encounter a raid somewhere where they can't just enter a instance or jump into lava to suicide still remains.

All of this together...as said... makes it extremely safe for raiders to go raiding and extremely difficult for gankers to gank those raiders. Atleast in BWL/MC. I think when AQ comes out it will get alot more fair for world pvpers as the AQ area only has one entrance and there's less suiciding possibilities aka no lava.

 

So @Ascension staff I would definitely suggest removing the ritual of summoning spell or atleast set the requirement for that spell to lvl 60. So you can't just have summoning alts summoning players directly in front of the instance portal.

Edited by Mikkiller93

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@Dylan_98 That is a great and detailed set of suggestions, and I love it.

+1 to most of the points. 

The only thing I disagree with is the removal of raids, some people enjoy both raiding and PvP, and I think it's only fair we respect that and allow them a chance to do what they enjoy.

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As a returning player I found it really weird that the BWL gear was only available to get through raids (or buy from the AH). At the start of the server people weren't complaining about the drops in the world and there were a lot of PvE guilds back then. By forcing the PvPers who are an obvious majority on this realm to PvE when they went into this server with the the idea that there would be no need to pve in order to have bis gear in pvp. The pveers will do pve either way. You're just chasing away the pvpers.  And imagine this server with only people from the pve guilds. What would be their incentive to go out in the world? You can get gear from a tier below the gear you get from raids? Then you would have a free for all wpvp server with noone out in the world.

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The issue with making current tier drop off of mobs is simple do you understand the amount of naked farmers that would be able to get free good gear for practically no risk?

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20 minutes ago, Gavrielxd said:

The issue with making current tier drop off of mobs is simple do you understand the amount of naked farmers that would be able to get free good gear for practically no risk?

That's a good point, and one we have considered and are coming up with solutions. Personally, I like the idea of having a "luck" value based on ilvl/rarity that increases your chance to find epics, or even unlocks entirely new loot tables(higher tiers of gear) when you hit certain luck milestones. Maybe fel commutation removes the luck value from that slot even to further reward the risk.

There are a lot of potential solutions we are brainstorming around this.

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7 hours ago, Superfastguy said:

Ah yes good IDEA!  WORLD PVP COINS. I touch upon this in my post just above!

Yep i read it after posting, i was writting at the same time but i write pretty slow :P i think world pvp coins would motivate pve'ers and pvp'ers to go out the world to get some BiS piece of gear. PvE players would have to go out in their pve gear if they want a chance to kill someone and that would give access to T2 to PvP players which with PvP gear would be easier to get coins without being a glass cannon. Obviously this idea is not perfect yet it has to be worked on and tweaked so its worth the risk, but this would make mandatory doing some wPvP to get the best gear (epic PvP gear back in vanilla was actually BiS for some classes up to naxx)

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Gonna contribute here cuz having way too much fun on this serv and I want that to continue.

 

The whole point of this server, as it's advertised, is to have an active world pvp playerbase, in which gear is fluid, in that you might lose it all but kill the next dude and replenish on epics (kinda like in counterstrike. Kill an AWP-er with a deagle, and loot it!). Raids and BGs dillute that experience by concetrating people in cities and raids, where they can't be ganked. The "obvious" solution here is to incentivize risking your gear for better drops, but there's a catch : too much incentive will just lead to raid pvp groups that will monopolize farm spots (as can be the case with chests).

 

The solution in my opinion is to have an abundance of areas of interest in the world where peeps can farm a diversity of items: gear, tokens that lead to currently unavailable (high warlord?) or custom gear, profession nodes... If these spots are numerous enough, big guilds won't camp them as having too many people will simply not be optimal, creating cool, dynamic, and fair wPvP fights.

This however requires these to be at least as attractive as raids. This can be attained with t2 world drops from specific zones (tyr's hand, devilsaurs ... ?), even if that means buffing the mobs to be challenging for a level 60 with a good build; profession recipes should also be improved to push people to good farming spots, such as with custom ore (can simply be done by using one from later expansions like felsteel or khorium and creating custom epics that use them).

 

I came to the thread to talk about an idea that was discussed a few posts above : vanilla pvp gear should be available but not for honor, as this would incentivize BGs rather than wPvP. The solution seems to be a guaranteed token in slain players' loot chest, used as currency for r14 gear, epic mounts, etc, battle standards, etc.

 

In short, the idea is simple. The highest rewards should come from the highest risk taking. Incentivize risk on a high risk server lest the world will be empty !

 

One more thing with that regard: gangbanging could be diluted by having lesser loot chest rewards the bigger your group is, and would promote independent and "fair" ganking, and high risk taking !

 

sorry this post structure is messy i really typed shit up as it came to my head. I'll clarify any questions yall may have

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