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Beastly

Will PvP'ers always be behind on LS?

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TRY TO KEEP THE DISCUSSION CANCER-FREE, PLEASE.
THIS IS NOT A PVP VS. PVE THREAD. RAIDING AND PVP CAN CO-EXIST IN A FAIR ENVIRONMENT.


Hey there! First of all, good job on the wPvP events, devs. Despite the issues, they are a welcome addition to the Laughing Skull server, and I'd like to see them improved upon and see more of them.

Now with that said, I have some major concerns about the future of the server. I feel like the devs direction is unclear, and that no matter how many events and cool things you do, your efforts will go to waste when the rewards are subpar to instanced PvE rewards.

What do I mean by this?

At the moment some of the best gear available is only obtainable through instanced PvE. There's no means of getting this gear otherwise, as PvE'ers will never go out in the world with their BWL gear. (No, AH isn't an option)

This creates an unfair playing field, where people who stay in safezones and instances gets rewarded heavily with insane loot better than anything else, while people participating in world events and world PvP gets rewarded with old items that's been out for months (70% of them are completely useless and can't even be sold on the Auction House - talking about Zandalar items, recipes etc)

I'm not saying PvE'ers shouldn't get rewarded, but I do wish there was more fairness involved when you make decisions. Especially considering this is a server advertised as PvP-focused.

And this brings me to the next thing - Why is the devs direction with the server unclear?

When advertising a server as PvP-focused, you stick with what you've promised. I know you want to cater to as many as possible, but it's ruining the purpose of the server in the long run. You end up having shitloads of PvE'ers on a PvP server not willing to participate in anything due to High-Risk, while all the people who want to participate, don't feel appreciated for doing so.

You need to make up your mind. Do you want Laughing Skull to be a High-Risk PvP server, or a No-Risk PvE server with pseudo High-Risk PvP elements?

I don't mind either one, but please be kind enough to tell the PvP/PvE playerbase if they are wasting their time on this server or not. PvE players shouldn't be taking over a PvP server, but the truth is, thats whats happening atm.

Imagine if Andorhal had wPvP events, and they rewarded BWL gear, but you couldn't get BWL gear from raiding. That would make 0 sense, and ruin the whole purpose of the server being PvE and no-risk, yet that's exactly what's going on on Laughing Skull right now. PvE'ers get access to OP gear, while PvP'ers get the short end of the stick.

If it's going to continue like this all the way through AQ and Naxx, I honestly don't see why any PvP'er will have any kind of motivation to play on here. Either make gearing fair, or simply declare to the playerbase that you are gonna continue to make PvE'ers be pumped on steroids throughout servers lifespan. People deserve to know.

(I'm not saying BiS gear should be introduced through Crow's Chest, Elemental Invasions or world drops neccesarily. I understand the issue of having the 1-2 top PvP guilds on the server be full BiS while the rest of the server is behind. Kinda like it is with PvE guilds right now. All I know is the way things are right now isn't healthy for the server overall)




 

Edited by Beastly

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You made some great points, I'd like to add onto this discussion, first my name is Daddy on LS and I've been an active pvper on this server and my opinions are based on my experience on this server over these past few months.

The system that is currently in place makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, a high risk PvP server with mandatory PvE aspects does not entice players who are committed to the PvP experience. I have already experienced the PvE elements of this game and no longer wish to participate in raiding this old content, but I am excited by the idea of a classes WoW for some seriously fun PvP action.

I'm left with the option of finding a PvE guild to obtain best in slot or stick to grinding furbolgs or hopefully finding a player or two to kill in world-pvp. I'd honestly prefer the latter, but with the current system in place any bunch of casuals can run through raid content using extremely easy classless specs (AKA Tranquility Bots, Mangle Cats, Shadow Bolt spammers, ETC ETC) to blitz through some old content to achieve a better result in gear and also make more gold than someone who is risking it in world pvp? (Raiders make bank if you weren't aware because they can just sell some BWL gear for maximum profit)

With all that's been said, this server has SO much potential, but the execution is just not there yet. Eventually all of your loyal PVP players will dissipate regardless of the "state of ascension" and you will be left with nothing but another Andorhol without soulbound gear. But if that's what you want, then advertise it as such because I'm not interested otherwise.

Fix this mess, make PvP great again.

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Can’t really add too much to this post except to just agree with what’s been said. Just seems like the direction of LS is one big misadvertisement

We are all thankful for the latest PvP updates in terms of World PvP, it’s been great to be able to know exact locations on where you can get PvP and I’ve definately enjoyed it a lot more than I did before Crows Cache and these Elemental Invasions. 

Unfortunately like Beastly said, no matter how fun these events are and how much PvP they bring to the server we are always one step behind players who are risking absolutely nothing (except the time it takes between main city and the instance) to get the best gear possible. I think it should be the other way around. Of course I believe raiders should be rewarded but if you choose to play no risk on this server, you should not be priviledged to the gear which players SHOULD be getting by risking themselves out in the world.

T2 items are impossible to come across at the moment, it’s too early into BWL so guilds like Obscurum and Yikes are obviously going to take the gear for themselves and it will be a while until we see T2 on the auction house (not including rag legs and ony helms). I’ve managed to get one whole BWL piece of gear from a guildie since we anti raided some guys for it, I don’t really think this should be the only option for T2 to be available.

Id like it to be added to crows cache, speaking on behalf of a guild who gets literally every single one we contest (haha Zerg guild xDD), the loot is underwhelming, of course you can get a lucky T2 helm or a nice weapon but it’s mainly recipes, zg items and 50g caster T1 gear. Once again this felt like misadvertisement from the way it was made out to be as an event.

Im no veteran here, I’ve played since February and only have played on LS but I’ve played in enough World PvP realms to know what kills and saves a concept. 

This realm should be about PvP, everything should revolve around PvP. No I’m not salty because I don’t raid, I’m very confident that I could clear content with a guild but I am playing Laughing Skull, not Andorhal.

My main proposition is to give PvP players the best gear, because it’s how the server idea should work, you should risk your rewards. If you choose to not risk and play PvE you should be rewarded for your time but not at the same quality of gear.

You can also combat many arguments such as “oh zerg guilds would win everything and horde gear” by setting up community GM based events where guilds fight each other with restricted numbers for gear rewards, guilds who are confident can bring their epics and  will stomp teams in blues as they risked more, that’s the point of high risk is it not.

I appreciate any feedback but I do not want to hear a single PvE only player saying “wow is a pve endgame game”, you can’t compare LS to retail.

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This, beastly, was a damn good post! Couldnt agree more. The way LS got advertised was very far away from how the server turned out. The new events is a great step in the right direction. Now they just need to reward the same tier of items as raids does 🖒🖒🖒

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I completely agree.

The entire premise of emphasizing a 'hardcore full-pvp server' is to provide an experience to HARDCORE PVP PLAYERS, while giving secondary gearing options aimed towards PvEr's. If anything, wPvP events, such as Crow's Cache, should immediately drop tier gear one level higher than raiding, or at the very least same-tier (i.e BWL releases -- BWL gear drops from Caches, AQ releases -- AQ gear drops from Caches, etc).

The way the system is set up now, you are rewarding PvE players with the best gear in the game while they sit in the major cities and spam queue BG's until their next raid. Does this sound right to you on a realm that is advertised as 'High-Risk Free-for-All World PvP'? 

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27 minutes ago, Guido said:

If anything, wPvP events, such as Crow's Cache, should immediately drop tier gear one level higher than raiding

Definitely do NOT agree with this. I think the same tier would be fine. A tier higher than whatever is currently possible puts whichever guild wins the most chests in the position to monopolize the market.

Overall though, I do feel as though T2 should be available to EVERYONE. Not every player of the server wants to be in a large raiding guild. With Ascensions focus on new population and bringing in new players, surely they won't want to be forced into a raiding guild to get up to par with other PvE/PvPers

Edited by Othanic

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6 minutes ago, Othanic said:

Definitely do NOT agree with this. I think the same tier would be fine. A tier higher than whatever is currently possible puts whichever guild wins the most chests in the position to monopolize the market.

Overall though, I do feel as though T2 should be available to EVERYONE. Not every player of the server wants to be in a large raiding guild. With Ascensions focus on new population and bringing in new players, surely they won't want to be forced into a raiding guild to get up to par with other PvE/PvPers

Could I just ask your reasoning to why you feel players who run in a no risk environment should be able to attain the same tier gear than people who play continuous high risk, just curious as I’ve never had a straight answer.

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2 minutes ago, Aaron_ said:

Could I just ask your reasoning to why you feel players who run in a no risk environment should be able to attain the same tier gear than people who play continuous high risk, just curious as I’ve never had a straight answer.

The reason I would not like to see a tier higher is the reason stated. A tier above what is currently available I feel is a little overpowered, and would put the large scale guilds in the position to monopolize the auction house by selling these pieces for large amounts of gold, after all, no one buys T1 now because T2 is out. Imagine if players could obtain AQ gear, what would happen to T2? It becomes useless. 

I feel as though skipping all the progression and time that has to be put into the currently available raids is a fair enough reward. My reasoning has nothing to do with the risk involved, but it's more a view point from balance and economics.

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Just now, Othanic said:

The reason I would not like to see a tier higher is the reason stated. A tier above what is currently available I feel is a little overpowered, and would put the large scale guilds in the position to monopolize the auction house by selling these pieces for large amounts of gold, after all, no one buys T1 now because T2 is out. Imagine if players could obtain AQ gear, what would happen to T2? It becomes useless. 

I feel as though skipping all the progression and time that has to be put into the currently available raids is a fair enough reward. My reasoning has nothing to do with the risk involved, but it's more a view point from balance and economics.

Unfortunately that is exactly what will happen going forwards from now, very few guilds will have BWL on farm and will monopoloize the market, thanks for the reply as I do agree with you. We should on the minimum be equal with them as right now T1 is being bought by pvp players, not many have T2 at all.

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Yes, I 100% agree that it should be T2, and that it should be available from world drops too, I just wouldn't like to see AQ gear before its release.

Edited by Othanic

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@Othanic I don't think any guilds should have the possibility to singlehandedly control the market. I agree that T2 should come from various things - it should be rare as fuck, but obtainable by most. Soon enough T1 gear will become overflooded and new players should be able to get that gear for cheap (unless someone manipulates the T1 market aswell lol)
I'd like to see other rewards from wPvP that can't be obtained elsewhere. Forcing people to do them if they want a part of it. These rewards should be minor upgrades like enchants, items or vanity stuff like titels. Nothing crazy. Maybe these minor upgrades would be obtainable through some hardcore PvE stuff aswell.

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1 minute ago, Beastly said:

 I don't think any guilds should have the possibility to singlehandedly control the market.

Oh no of course not, I understand that isn't what you mean, this was in reply to Guido's suggestion. (that AQ40 gear would drop from Crows etc)

That would put guilds who constantly do Crows in power of the AQ market. However, T2 in Crows would be brilliant.

Edited by Othanic

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1 hour ago, Beastly said:

There's no means of getting this gear otherwise, as PvE'ers will never go out in the world with their BWL gear. (No, AH isn't an option)

So then, if this is the case, what is the problem? If PvE'ers don't interact with PvP'ers, why does it matter if PvP'ers has access to the best gear or not (how does PvE'ers having access to better gear create an unfair playing field if they never PvP?)

What I'm suggesting is not that PvP'ers should never have access to the best gear, I just don't see what the problem is with PvP'ers being a tier behind if PvE'ers never interact with PvP'ers anyways.

Now, I understand that there is outliers when it comes to the above. Obviously there are people doing PvE and PvP at the same time. I just don't think it's enough to create that big of a problem that it should change. After all the person doing both PvP and PvE did go out of his way to clear a raid to get that gear.

Maybe in the future we'll see a PvP-substitute way to obtaining the current raid-tier gear. Personally tho, I don't feel like it's that big of a deal.

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4 minutes ago, ikatzuki said:

After all the person doing both PvP and PvE did go out of his way to clear a raid to get that gear.

But this ISN'T a raiding server, and so PvPers should be at least able to obtain the same tier from PvP. The issue is that IF they do decide to PvP in that gear, ours is massively inferior.

 

I joined LS for the HIGH RISK PVP, not to be forced into raids to obtain my BiS

Edited by Othanic

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5 minutes ago, ikatzuki said:

So then, if this is the case, what is the problem? If PvE'ers don't interact with PvP'ers, why does it matter if PvP'ers has access to the best gear or not (how does PvE'ers having access to better gear create an unfair playing field if they never PvP?)

What I'm suggesting is not that PvP'ers should never have access to the best gear, I just don't see what the problem is with PvP'ers being a tier behind if PvE'ers never interact with PvP'ers anyways.

Now, I understand that there is outliers when it comes to the above. Obviously there are people doing PvE and PvP at the same time. I just don't think it's enough to create that big of a problem that it should change. After all the person doing both PvP and PvE did go out of his way to clear a raid to get that gear.

Maybe in the future we'll see a PvP-substitute way to obtaining the current raid-tier gear. Personally tho, I don't feel like it's that big of a deal.

Because this isn't a raiding server. Period. This is a HARDCORE PVP realm. Not a HARDCORE PVE realm. Pve players should not be getting more rewarded than the people going out in the world and actually risking gear.

 

you don't feel like its a big deal, because you raid.. you don't contribute to world PVP events. so of course, you wouldn't.

Edited by nxk1

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6 minutes ago, ikatzuki said:

So then, if this is the case, what is the problem? If PvE'ers don't interact with PvP'ers, why does it matter if PvP'ers has access to the best gear or not (how does PvE'ers having access to better gear create an unfair playing field if they never PvP?)

What I'm suggesting is not that PvP'ers should never have access to the best gear, I just don't see what the problem is with PvP'ers being a tier behind if PvE'ers never interact with PvP'ers anyways.

Now, I understand that there is outliers when it comes to the above. Obviously there are people doing PvE and PvP at the same time. I just don't think it's enough to create that big of a problem that it should change. After all the person doing both PvP and PvE did go out of his way to clear a raid to get that gear.

Maybe in the future we'll see a PvP-substitute way to obtaining the current raid-tier gear. Personally tho, I don't feel like it's that big of a deal.

Because they can obtain the best gear possible which nobody else can obtain and then spam bg and interact with PvP players while spending 0 hrs risking any of their gear?

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@ikatzuki As I said in my example, imagine Andorhal having wPvP events like LS, and they would drop BWL loot, yet only the lower tier was obtainable from raiding. That would seem completely wrong on a PvE server, wouldn't it? Why is it so different when you turn it around?

It's splitting up the server and emptying the world. I've even seen hardcore PvE players say that they will NEVER go for chests or anything of those sorts, as long as the drops are so crappy. They are already swimming in MC/ZG gear, and are getting all the good stuff from BWL.

Besides, is it a healthy market when 2-3 top PvE guilds sit on 99% of the best loot in the game? A single item can sell for like 4-5K if it's good enough. That is one hell of a throne to sit on. You can't compare Vanilla or WotLK to a High-Risk format of the game. This version of WoW can't really be called WoW anymore. It's a completely new game with some of the same elements.

Edited by Beastly

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5 minutes ago, ikatzuki said:

What I'm suggesting is not that PvP'ers should never have access to the best gear, I just don't see what the problem is with PvP'ers being a tier behind if PvE'ers never interact with PvP'ers anyways.

 

PvE players will flood battlegrounds with their bis gear, clearly we never interact in that regard. Also if this continues throughout the progression system into BC when arena comes into play, then you have the issue of PvE players having a clear advantage in that situations as well. Pvp server btw.

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I don't see the issue with making it fair for both parts. Give the posibility of T2 loot to (mostly) everyone, in one way or another. The items shouldn't drop like crazy. They should still have high value, so raiders don't feel like doing raids isn't worth their time.

Edited by Beastly

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6 minutes ago, ikatzuki said:

So then, if this is the case, what is the problem? If PvE'ers don't interact with PvP'ers, why does it matter if PvP'ers has access to the best gear or not (how does PvE'ers having access to better gear create an unfair playing field if they never PvP?)

What I'm suggesting is not that PvP'ers should never have access to the best gear, I just don't see what the problem is with PvP'ers being a tier behind if PvE'ers never interact with PvP'ers anyways.

Now, I understand that there is outliers when it comes to the above. Obviously there are people doing PvE and PvP at the same time. I just don't think it's enough to create that big of a problem that it should change. After all the person doing both PvP and PvE did go out of his way to clear a raid to get that gear.

Maybe in the future we'll see a PvP-substitute way to obtaining the current raid-tier gear. Personally tho, I don't feel like it's that big of a deal.

There's good pvpers that do PvE and completely fuck battlegrounds sideways, if a good pvper decides to raid, get bis and do bgs it's like a lvl 19 twink fighting fresh level 10s in the 10-19 bracket as we can already see this happening in bgs. Which is partly why bgs now consist of 3v3 matches.

 

You have no experience in this matter, if you give me bis bwl gear while you're in t1 zg-mc gear I will win 100% of duels against you, or anyone on this realm without much effort, 40% total crit from 5 set t2 as a fire mage and over 300 spell power advantage. I would be able to win 1v3s consistently. 

 

You remove competitive end game PvP on this realm which is bgs and 1v1 arenas completely when there unobtainable gear, not that raiding is a huge issue, it's that we were told raiding would no longer be a requirement or necessity. We wasted so much time playing here. 

 

If I wanted to play raid log simulator I would have stuck to the other dying realms ascension has to offer.

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7 minutes ago, deem1 said:

If I wanted to play raid log simulator I would have stuck to the other dying realms ascension has to offer.

Keep it civilized please, this isn't a thread to slate Ascension or yell at the developers. It's simply to shed some light on the aforementioned issue and see how the community feels and whether they agree or disagree. 

This last part to your argument certainly wasn't needed or appreciated.

Edited by Othanic

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Having BWL gear drop from wpvp is a good idéa, but having it limited to caches, is just dumb. At least with the current state that 15-20man raids just roam around. And as aron said himself, Zergs simply get most of the caches, since majority of others don't have the numbers to compete.

I would rather suggest that BWL loot can drop like any other epic in world, but with a significant lower drop chance, that slowly increases the drop percentages, so there still is reason to raid and not just naked farm, when new content is released, but instead the drop percentages for current tier slowly increases.

As well with adding a downside to going in big raid groups, some penalty should be added to groups higher than 5, and increased penalty to bigger the groups are.
There simply need to be some kind of drawback from going in large raid groups.

I've tried being in a 15man raid group myself just zerging a cache, it's the most boring thing. Although the best experience i've had in wpvp so far, was fighting for 1 cache, with 4 groups with around 4-7 members in each, that was by far the most fun and best fight i've been in.


/Bavne on LS

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6 minutes ago, Traxx said:

would rather suggest that BWL loot can drop like any other epic in world, but with a significant lower drop chance

+1

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And if you do add T2 to loot tables like Bavne suggested, you’re going to see a massive increase in players in the world as players like myself currently cannot get better gear until T2 is available and will froth at the mouth at the opportunity of T2 gear lmao 

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