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Auben2k

Player Killing in Towns

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So recently I have been getting killed a lot by players in small towns that I am getting quests from. I don't attack back to not get attacked by guards, but since the player is killing me I am dropping items on death. The player killing me is not dropping anything on death and is not risking anything. Something needs to be done about this. 

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On 27. 2. 2018 at 4:33 AM, Auben2k said:

So recently I have been getting killed a lot by players in small towns that I am getting quests from. I don't attack back to not get attacked by guards, but since the player is killing me I am dropping items on death. The player killing me is not dropping anything on death and is not risking anything. Something needs to be done about this. 

I agree on this with you, this should get fixed at some point. Towns, villages or even camps perhaps should provide to player a safe spot. However, when I think of this from the killing player's point of view, I feel like it should be possible at some point, I mean it gives player that roleplaying kind of feeling, and to be honest that is what I love so much about this project.

Certainly the guards could be stronger, but having level 55 guards everywhere is not solution at all. Another thing I can think of is that once player is agressive towards others, he could become hostile to faction guards for at least 30 minutes, making players think twice before attacking others.

It'd be really good if some more people replied to this topic, because I think this is an interesting one..

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They don’t need to add even more sanctuary zones, what they need to do is fix the way the guards work. If you’re ranged you can sit on someone, attack them and then the guards will focus the guy you’re attacking instead of the person who actually needs defending from the guards. 

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2 minutes ago, Aaron_ said:

They don’t need to add even more sanctuary zones, what they need to do is fix the way the guards work. If you’re ranged you can sit on someone, attack them and then the guards will focus the guy you’re attacking instead of the person who actually needs defending from the guards. 

I totally agree with this. I don't think adding even more sanctuary-cities is the way to go. Most of the inn's in cities are already safe so you can hide in there.

If they could fix the guards that would be great. I've had multiple scenarios in Gadgetzan where the attacker will just Bubble after attacking me and I end up with like 15 guards on me. I feel like they should be hard-locked on the original attacker and not swap target at all.

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sigh i wish they would just disable guards made wpvp alot more fun but yaknow crying bitches are crying bitches

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1 minute ago, jadugar said:

lol, and I'm about to head to Tanaris >,<

Just remember that you're not flagged inside the Inn house.

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Yes you are lol to the other faction ive killed people who were afk 

3 minutes ago, ikatzuki said:

Just remember that you're not flagged inside the Inn house.

Neutral inns are not safe its better to just log out

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1 minute ago, Gavriel said:

Yes you are lol to the other faction ive killed people who were afk 

Neutral inns are not safe its better to just log out

I meant you're not flagged for FFA. I know that if a horde and alliance char is inside the inn they are flagged for PVP to eachother yeah. After leveling 2 characters in Tanaris tho I never really found it a problem. Not a single time did I have a horde person run inside of the Inn house to kill me.

Sure logging out is always the safest way to be safe.

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Adding guard aggro is the worst thing they did to this server next to releasing MC and Ony.

Example: before the raiding tainted this realm, you could find almost all of <Dads> at HG. 

Other example: I leveled from 20-24 on pvp at the crossroads inn. The best times. 

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4 minutes ago, Fame said:

Adding guard aggro is the worst thing they did to this server next to releasing MC and Ony.

Example: before the raiding tainted this realm, you could find almost all of <Dads> at HG. 

Other example: I leveled from 20-24 on pvp at the crossroads inn. The best times. 

I don't think having the guards themselves is that bad of an idea. I feel like they just don't work the way they should which then results in the clunkiness we see now.

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I think this issue is deeper than safe zones, guards, sanctuary, inns, ect. 

Everyone points to the high risk tag in discussions like this... but they don't want high risk for themselves. They want high risk for the people they are trying to kill. Right now being a ganker or part of a gank squad is the lowest form of risk you can undertake, which is really counter intuitive to me.

We have a lot of different opinions on the Ascension team around this, so don't take my opinion as the official Ascension stance on the issue.

I don't think safe zones or guards is so much the issue. I think the issue is that there is no risk for the aggressor. High risk should not mean zero consequence. Zero consequence pvp is really damaging overall in my opinion. It severely limits emergent gameplay, it almost removes the ability for a server culture to develop, and it encourages avoiding player interaction in a massively multiplayer game. (People like to claim the world is empty, but for many players a successful play session means NOT encountering another player). We could overhaul guards, quest hubs, inns, ect... but that would only improve a small % of the players' experience. Introducing a TRUE high risk system would improve the experience for everyone (in my opinion).

The biggest issue I see is that zero-risk ganking creates a Me Vs Everyone culture, where a game like UO had much more complexity behind your player interactions. It created a Me Vs whatever the situation called for. Some of my favorite pvp moments of any game would not have been possible without a murderer system. Seeing a group of blue players who were previously strangers try to defend a spawn from a group of murderers, only for another group of murderers to attack those murderers from behind and create a 3 way-battle is incredible. Then you have your solo players grabbing a straggler, some loot, and booking it out. It was absolute mayhem and THE most fun I've had in pvp. And situations like that happened daily.

More importantly, situations like that created amazing bonds between players. It introduces a layer of social gaming the vast majority of WoW players have never and will never experience during their gaming career. So it's not surprise when people say they wouldn't want it, or that it wouldn't work, but the reality is that you've probably never tried it, and 100% of the people who HAVE want it again.

I know a lot of the community hates the idea of a murderer system or karma system, and you wouldn't see a major change like that dropped into LS, but I do hope to test it out on a seasonal server so people can see the benefits. I think a system like that would alleviate the need to overhaul guards, inns, or quest hubs. It would create the type of emergent gameplay and exciting wpvp everyone is craving.

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On 4/13/2018 at 2:13 PM, Kaladin said:

I think this issue is deeper than safe zones, guards, sanctuary, inns, ect. 

Everyone points to the high risk tag in discussions like this... but they don't want high risk for themselves. They want high risk for the people they are trying to kill. Right now being a ganker or part of a gank squad is the lowest form of risk you can undertake, which is really counter intuitive to me.

We have a lot of different opinions on the Ascension team around this, so don't take my opinion as the official Ascension stance on the issue.

I don't think safe zones or guards is so much the issue. I think the issue is that there is no risk for the aggressor. High risk should not mean zero consequence. Zero consequence pvp is really damaging overall in my opinion. It severely limits emergent gameplay, it almost removes the ability for a server culture to develop, and it encourages avoiding player interaction in a massively multiplayer game. (People like to claim the world is empty, but for many players a successful play session means NOT encountering another player). We could overhaul guards, quest hubs, inns, ect... but that would only improve a small % of the players' experience. Introducing a TRUE high risk system would improve the experience for everyone (in my opinion).

The biggest issue I see is that zero-risk ganking creates a Me Vs Everyone culture, where a game like UO had much more complexity behind your player interactions. It created a Me Vs whatever the situation called for. Some of my favorite pvp moments of any game would not have been possible without a murderer system. Seeing a group of blue players who were previously strangers try to defend a spawn from a group of murderers, only for another group of murderers to attack those murderers from behind and create a 3 way-battle is incredible. Then you have your solo players grabbing a straggler, some loot, and booking it out. It was absolute mayhem and THE most fun I've had in pvp. And situations like that happened daily.

More importantly, situations like that created amazing bonds between players. It introduces a layer of social gaming the vast majority of WoW players have never and will never experience during their gaming career. So it's not surprise when people say they wouldn't want it, or that it wouldn't work, but the reality is that you've probably never tried it, and 100% of the people who HAVE want it again.

I know a lot of the community hates the idea of a murderer system or karma system, and you wouldn't see a major change like that dropped into LS, but I do hope to test it out on a seasonal server so people can see the benefits. I think a system like that would alleviate the need to overhaul guards, inns, or quest hubs. It would create the type of emergent gameplay and exciting wpvp everyone is craving.

Just to build on what you were saying. I currently play a game called Mortal Online. It has two types of towns. Guarded and un-guarded towns. There is also a flagging system.

Blue = Innocent. Hasn't accumulated enough 'Murder Counts' to become 'Red' (i.e. Murderer). You go 'Grey' attackable by all. (And lootable by all). They can enter guarded cities without the guards bashing them.

 

Grey = Criminal. Someone who's committed a crime. Murder, steal from someone, steal from a blue players loot, etc. These guys can't enter guarded cities without being attacked by guards. Anyone can kill them without consequence, and if they die anyone can loot them without consequence. If they are blue and attack another blue player and kill them, the victim (The one whom died) can 'Murder Count' the attacker (i.e. Increasing their murder count from '0' to '1'.) If the victim kills the criminal, the victim can loot the attackers items without consequence. The 'Grey Flag' is also on a timer. Meaning anyone can attack them. Attacking a grey FIRST however allows the grey to kill HIS attacker without consequence. Except if the Grey still dies, he can not murder count like a Blue could. Finally, attacking a grey 'resets' the timer of how long he remains being grey. Meaning if he attacks he must be prepared to fight off all attackers or evade the angry pitch-fork wielding mob.

  

Red = Murderer. This is a criminal that has exceeded the 'Murder Count' threshold. They can continue to accumulate murder counts increasing their time being red, but as time passes these murder counts are 'burned off' (i.e. They disappear over an allotted amount of time. Maybe 2 hours per count. In Mortal Online it's 8 hours per count.) Murderers can be attacked and looted by anyone. Obviously guards also attack them on sight.

 

TL;DR

A flagging system. Blue is innocent. Grey is criminal. Red is murderer. You start off Blue, you go Grey attacking players, you can eventually go Red preventing entry to guarded towns (Except maybe neutral areas. This would be an exception). But you can leave the Red flag by just playing the game (i.e. Waiting for the 'Murder Counts' to elapse.)

 

I'm sure this can be done given that World of Warcraft has multiple faction ID's present. There would obviously be some coding involved in the switching of flags when an action is taken. This also doesn't take away from the hardcore element of the server - but rather builds on the complexity of it by giving 'lines in the sand'. Guilds could become 'Blue Only' guilds where they strive to be the protectors, and 'Red Guilds' as obvious criminals and murderers. The colors are just an expression and not the literal 'colors' of these 'flags'.

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You do understand people need to go into towns to quest n shit right? that system would fuck over soo many people in the end its redic

15 minutes ago, Dylan_98 said:

Just to build on what you were saying. I currently play a game called Mortal Online. It has two types of towns. Guarded and un-guarded towns. There is also a flagging system.

Blue = Innocent. Hasn't accumulated enough 'Murder Counts' to become 'Red' (i.e. Murderer). You go 'Grey' attackable by all. (And lootable by all). They can enter guarded cities without the guards bashing them.

 

Grey = Criminal. Someone who's committed a crime. Murder, steal from someone, steal from a blue players loot, etc. These guys can't enter guarded cities without being attacked by guards. Anyone can kill them without consequence, and if they die anyone can loot them without consequence. If they are blue and attack another blue player and kill them, the victim (The one whom died) can 'Murder Count' the attacker (i.e. Increasing their murder count from '0' to '1'.) If the victim kills the criminal, the victim can loot the attackers items without consequence. The 'Grey Flag' is also on a timer. Meaning anyone can attack them. Attacking a grey FIRST however allows the grey to kill HIS attacker without consequence. Except if the Grey still dies, he can not murder count like a Blue could. Finally, attacking a grey 'resets' the timer of how long he remains being grey. Meaning if he attacks he must be prepared to fight off all attackers or evade the angry pitch-fork wielding mob.

  

Red = Murderer. This is a criminal that has exceeded the 'Murder Count' threshold. They can continue to accumulate murder counts increasing their time being red, but as time passes these murder counts are 'burned off' (i.e. They disappear over an allotted amount of time. Maybe 2 hours per count. In Mortal Online it's 8 hours per count.) Murderers can be attacked and looted by anyone. Obviously guards also attack them on sight.

 

TL;DR

A flagging system. Blue is innocent. Grey is criminal. Red is murderer. You start off Blue, you go Grey attacking players, you can eventually go Red preventing entry to guarded towns (Except maybe neutral areas. This would be an exception). But you can leave the Red flag by just playing the game (i.e. Waiting for the 'Murder Counts' to elapse.)

 

I'm sure this can be done given that World of Warcraft has multiple faction ID's present. There would obviously be some coding involved in the switching of flags when an action is taken. This also doesn't take away from the hardcore element of the server - but rather builds on the complexity of it by giving 'lines in the sand'. Guilds could become 'Blue Only' guilds where they strive to be the protectors, and 'Red Guilds' as obvious criminals and murderers. The colors are just an expression and not the literal 'colors' of these 'flags'.

 

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If we have the ability to create custom systems like that I think we also have the ability to handle them needing to go into towns and such...

If we were to implement a system like this it would come with a lot of other changes to make it compatible. I hear the compatibility argument a lot when people propose ideas. Why not suggest ways we could make it work? Because we have the ability to make those changes.

Ultimately, and this is my opinion, a criminal system would really improve high risk servers overall and create a ton of emergent gameplay and server culture. It wouldn't be a small addition though, and like you pointed out with players needing to enter towns for quests... it would require a lot more work than just adding the murderer system in. I really want to test this out on a seasonal server.

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