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Stmichael

Unpopular opinion on balance

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I know the intent on the classless system is supposed to be limitless possibilities subject only to limited talent/ability points, but the lack of tier gating (IE tier 1 requires level 10 and no points, tier 2 requires level 15 and 5 points total spent, etc) is creating a few toxic builds that crush a lot of creative builds. As paradoxical as it sounds, restrictions like what I'm suggesting open up the game to a lot wider a variety of builds to flourish rather than a meta that consists of stacking some insane combination of top tier talents and cooldowns to repeatedly 1-shot opponents. 

I believe this would make things much simpler to balance as well, given that things like titan grip or bladestorm can be looked at individually as opposed to determining whether it's bladestorm that's broken or the fact that you're hitting with both 2h weapons every second.

Edited by Stmichael

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I don't think anything should be gated, but they could be weighted. EX: Have titan grip have a larger debuff that required you putting more talent points into an improved titan grip to make it work. That would allow healers to pick TG but make it more expensive for melee(as it should be).

Personally, I think if they just removed the flat % and stat talents we would see more builds and less imbalance. They could replace them with some of the cool RE effects we see on armor and weapons, or use those slots to improve build defining spells like TG, Moonkin, stealth, shadowform, ect. 

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Well there are already gates and weights, i noticed that for Titan grip most abilities have a special modifier (like Sinister Strike) and many talents that used to be general like "increase damage with fire spells" are now "increase damage with mage fire spells" which kinda defeats the purpose in a way.

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I agree.
When I first heard about this project, I thought you have to put a certain amount of talents into a specialisation-tree, before you can learn the downer talents.
It's in the word; spe cial is ation. You can pick freely from every class, just like you'd had instead of 3 talent-tree'sto pick from; now 3x8=24 (or how many classes there are atm idk idc)

I thought this server would be this way, and would have liked that more, since then everybody would have had to truely mix specs and come up with some original class-hybrids instead just picking the best from everything.
 A paladinwarrior would highly differ from a roguehunter.. and so on. Now you don't have these differences. Everyone is just a "magehealer" or "titan grip warrior with buffs and cc"
 really, it's boring. and tbh it's killing me a bit when I think about what could have been ... srly can you imagine all the different classes? if people had to pick 2 or specs and not many more when it comes to talents?
people would skill all the way to titan grip, spending most their talent points, and then only have a few left to put into a rogue, warlock or whatever. But be able to mix freely spells from any other class in.

 however, I think it's too late to change now. But a server with this system would be interesting.

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I feel it would be counter-intuitive to the point of the server. They want a server with near limitless opportunity. However, no matter which direction they go, there will always be outliers that are ungodly OP. You nerf Titan's Grip (or at least it's potential in PvP), and people will just find the next best thing. It will just begin a cycle of looking for the next OP bandwagon to jump on. There will always be people who do that, and there's not much the devs can actually do about that.

In saying that, I've noticed the devs don't necessarily encourage it. We've seen on their Discord/Twitter/YouTube that they'll showcase actual creative builds if they're viable. And this positive reinforcement towards creativity is the only true way to get people off the bandwagon and to try to be inventive.

Edited by Grish

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when everyone can pick from everywhere,

everyone just picks up the same basic spells

really, noticed this in first weeks of Sargeras in 60's PvP.
 Everyone just picked up
-best CC
-instant spells
-instant heals
-defensives

that's it. that's the best build for pvp. you don't have to be a genius to understand this. it only makes sense...
 and this won't ever change.

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Well you are playing high-risk PvP. The fear of losing your items tends to push people more towards a strong meta just to survive.
If you play Andorhal, you'll find much more creative builds.

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4 minutes ago, Grish said:

 and people will just find the next best thing.

Yes. No.
If you limit the freedom that everyone can pick any talent he wants without having to learn the previous one's, game would be more balanced.
Why? Because then, everyone would just be able to pick from "normal strong" things. There would still be meta's, but the gap would be less big.

Not learn every "super thing".
No Bladestorm-Killing Spree-Starfall-Feral Spirit (Ghost Wolfs)-TitanGrip- Supermen running at you anymore, like every meele build is now xdd

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Well I overexaggerted it a bit, ofc there are a few shadowdotters, even hunters, and tons, TONS of meeles.
But that's just how it was back then, and idk still not much diversity ... every meele is a titangripping bladestormer with exceptions of VERY VERY few cats and rogues.

 I wish there could be so much more. Like Shadow-Paladin, Rogue-Paladin. But these builds are just not viable when you can pick from EVERYTHING

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2 hours ago, Klick said:

Yes. No.
If you limit the freedom that everyone can pick any talent he wants without having to learn the previous one's, game would be more balanced.
Why? Because then, everyone would just be able to pick from "normal strong" things. There would still be meta's, but the gap would be less big.

Not learn every "super thing".
No Bladestorm-Killing Spree-Starfall-Feral Spirit (Ghost Wolfs)-TitanGrip- Supermen running at you anymore, like every meele build is now xdd

NO, NO and NO. Limiting the Freedom is never the answer, or we just may go and play retail WoW. Freedom is what makes this server great and I see a TON of  diferents build owning in BGs. Even Ai, who I think is one of the Best PvPers in Andorhal, has to tweek his build from time to time, and sometime He losses. I seen a lot of diferent builds: Dots builds, Fire Builds, Hunter Builds, Runner Builds(Cachtme) Inmortal Builds who are ignored in the Bgs cause it takes forever to kill then. Just cause some players go for the easy build and copy the most straightforward strategy that doesn't mean that is the only end game functional PvP build. And stop complaining about balance, this server is not about balance is about FUN and Freedom with your build! if you are geting Killed in Bgs: Find New gear, put new Res on then and if everything fails respec some abilities for better results. Any time that the Devs Nerf something for PvPers the PvE suffers MORE. Cheers!

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I think there was a miscommunication somewhere along the line. I'm not saying you should have to spend X number of points in Y tree to unlock a certain talent, only that you should have to spend X number of points anywhere to unlock the next tier of talents. 

Why that restriction specifically? Because everything in WoW, from the total number of stats on gear to base health, damage mitigation through armor/resistances, and all the base values for spells plus their scaling from AP/SP were based around any one class only having access to a very limited number of higher tier talents. Having the freedom to mix and match between any talent tree allows for interesting combinations, but being limited to only 1 capstone ability and not being able to dump half your points into top tier talents reigns in the insanity and allows blizzards original balancing to be more effective. 

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3 hours ago, Grish said:

I feel it would be counter-intuitive to the point of the server. They want a server with near limitless opportunity. However, no matter which direction they go, there will always be outliers that are ungodly OP. You nerf Titan's Grip (or at least it's potential in PvP), and people will just find the next best thing. It will just begin a cycle of looking for the next OP bandwagon to jump on. There will always be people who do that, and there's not much the devs can actually do about that.

In saying that, I've noticed the devs don't necessarily encourage it. We've seen on their Discord/Twitter/YouTube that they'll showcase actual creative builds if they're viable. And this positive reinforcement towards creativity is the only true way to get people off the bandwagon and to try to be inventive.

The key difference between having one OP ability and several is that if one strategy emerges that's OP (say for example Blade storm), you can look at that one ability and formulate a strategy to counter it. On the other hand, if you have to deal with blade storm/shadow step/killing spree/titans grip/penance/war bringer/etc. then your options for a counter start to dwindle and eventually disappear. The ability to devise counter-play is paramount, and the only real counter to insta-gibbing (Divine Shield) isn't so much a counter as it is a delay.

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I'm in with Smitchael, the true balance of systems is not attacking the meta build to make way for the next one take its place, but it is to create a rock/paper/scissors environment in which if one dominates at one point, another gets more tempting because it counters mass that uses the dominating build and a rotation is naturally born. At the moment the paper is lacking, I'm talking about the casters that micro, only range that has a chance at defeating the melees are the hunter-ish builds and in a weird way the doters.

By limiting just the number of end talents, the very last rows, would help a great deal.

 

Unfortunately I proposed time and time again and supported other great ideas, but here everything that resembles the meaning of "limit" you are boo-ed of stage. Maybe someday us non hyper-competitive or non super rapid response time types would gather enough to weigh for something to have our more role play and story oriented builds...

Edited by ManeaGeo
redundant wording

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Though I agree this solution would probably work in terms of making balance easier, it clearly goes against the design of the system till now. With this there would come a fracture in the community due to some liking the more limiting system and some completely disagreeing with the new system(some of course not caring either way). Such a fracture can break a server up.

 

So, what I propose is a maybe less invasive change specifically made to balance out the current as you said "toxic" builds. As there is a whole host of abilities that you are forced to use to even be competitive, it seems good to put some limit onto the use of them, opening up possibilities for more creativity. Please note: Any ability I name here is purely from my own experience, and is not a statement of fact. The named abilities are so as to create a representation of the idea I'm proposing.

 

First of all, as we already have this to some extend: Shared cool-downs.

This can come in different tiers: Full, partial and irregular.

 

For the full example:

I acknowledge that the top tier people using this type of build are often good at what they do. However, this only makes the problem even more severe. This is a certain type of build that has become cookie cutter. Combining Titans Grip, Killing Spree and Bladestorm, it is often almost impossible to deal with even mediocre players unless you specifically build against them (I.E. big defensive cool-downs  you can chain, or becoming exceedingly lucky with fiery payback) As both Bladestorm and Killing Spree were designed in a way that would destroy opponents with resilience unless they got away somehow, combining that with the ability to then charge and use the other one. Let's just say it is unsurprising that they have become so dominant to use together. As both are a type of offensive "Ultimate" I would suggest they are separated by putting the other one on the same cool-down as the one that's being used. This would instantly divide even this now-cookie-cutter spec into two groups, allowing for more experiments as to which will reign dominant.

 

For the partial example:

Any PVP-er that wants to be competitive takes at-least three abilities: Ice Block, Divine Shield and Dispersion. I'm proposing a prevention for chaining these spells, as they make one absurdly hard to deal with in a way that is unattainable in any other way. This for an extended period of time when allowed to chain. As it stands now, I would propose that if you use one of these abilities, the others go on a 1 minute CD with the exception of Dispersion which would put the other two on a 30 sec CD. Deterrence Might be included in some way, but as it cannot be used while CC-ed, I felt it was unnecessary. This change would make picking only one of these spells comparatively more viable while still granting use in picking all. If implemented, testing would be required to see if the shared CD is too much or little for this purpose.

 

For the irregular example:

Irregular cool-down sharing can be anything that is out of the ordinary. For example that one ability triggers a cool-down on the other but the reverse not being true. Or having to be in a certain state to share cool-down. I have no example for this as of yet, but I thought it important to at-least state the possibility as a need may arise.

 

 

As for the trouble with Bladestorm/Titans Grip dealing too much damage:

I'm not sure if I agree fully. Other ways to fix this problem might be more worth-while. However, if I was to be tasked with fixing that specific "problem", I would simply start with reducing the damage abilities that hit with both weapons do while wielding two two-hands. For example, double the innate damage reduction for those abilities and add the line: "This reduction is doubled for abilities that strike with both weapons" to the end of the tool-tip of titan's grip.

 

I hope this helps the conversation. Be critical, be fair.

I wish you a good day,

C. E. Fleush

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