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Nimzo

Season 5 Balance Patch Notes

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Hi there Heroes! 


We are in the midst of making final touches on all of the new things we have coming for Season 5, and boy are we excited! So many updates and new things are coming - we’re bursting with anticipation and can’t wait to open the realm on Friday.

While we wait for the big launch day, we thought we’d take the opportunity to showcase some of the balance changes we’re looking to implement along with the new season. Nothing is set in stone and everything is subject to change, but we wanted to offer a little preview of what is to come, and to hear what you think about it.

The results of the Balance Survey that we sent out last month showed that the majority of you feel that PvE is relatively well-balanced while PvP still has a ways to go. We hear you, understand you, and will be working to improve this. Before getting into the specifics of the changes we’re releasing this time around, there are a few things we’d like to mention about our work going forward. 

First of all, you will notice balance updates happening more frequently than they have in the past. Bigger redesigns obviously take time to do well, but smaller adjustments to for example the damage that certain spells do in PvP is something that will be updated more frequently from now on. 

Secondly, one of the biggest challenges for PvP balance is that it’s harder to measure than PvE balance. Everyone has their own subjective view, often related to which type of PvP content they prefer. Trying to balance for low level world PvP, high-end duels, Crow’s Caches, Battlegrounds and now also arenas, all at the same time, is no easy task. We will closely be monitoring how balance develops in Season 5 and look forward to reading your feedback here on the forums, on discord and through Balance Surveys.

Lastly, I would also like to mention that our ambition is not to have to implement any significant nerfs after Season 5 goes live. We know how much a lot of you are going to put into building your characters, and we don’t want to be in a situation of having to choose between nerfing that strong ability you just drafted or allowing everyone who got it to play with an advantage for the rest of the season. Thus, if your overall impression of the balance pack is that it’s a(nother) nerf-heavy one, we hope you can forgive us. We have plenty of fun buffs in store for you, don’t worry.

Alright then, let’s look at some changes!

To start with, we have some spell/talent changes for three specs that have been a little too dominant in PvP as of late.

  • Art of War now increases the effectiveness of Exorcism and Flash of Light by 10/20%, from 15/30%.
  • Art of War now has a 25/50% chance to proc, but no longer only procs off crits. It also has an internal cooldown, preventing it from proccing for 5 seconds after being used.
  • Touched by the Light now grants spell damage rather than spell power.
  • Purifying Power no longer modifies Exorcism, but reduces the cooldown of Holy Wrath by 25/50% (from 17/33%) and increases the damage of Consecration and Holy Wrath by 10/20% (from 5/10%).
  • Sanctified Wrath no longer modifies Avenging Wrath, but instead reduces the cooldown of Exorcism by 20/40% and increases its damage by 5/10%

We have seen these Retribution-based builds get very impressive amounts of self-sustain, and felt like it needed to be tuned down. The proc mechanic changes should make the proc more reliable for leveling and at earlier gear levels, and less powerful in conjunction with the Avengers 3-piece set bonus. 

The Art of War spell effectiveness reduction will negatively impact Exorcism, which wasn’t as urgently in need of nerfs, but instead of separating the numbers we opted to compensate for this by moving talents around to make the Exorcism-oriented talents more accessible. This should save some Talent Essences for PvE-oriented builds and make Exorcism more interesting for PvP builds. 

Another type of build that has been overperforming in terms of self-sustain in PvP is the Shield Slam PvP tank build. This was the most common complaint from last months Balance Survey, and we have two changes that we think should be quite effective at curbing their power.

Shield Slam now only dispels magic effects when Sword & Board is active.
Blood Craze now has a 10 second internal cooldown.

We were on the fence about removing the dispel effect entirely from Shield Slam, as it is a unique and interesting effect, but it certainly was too powerful in PvP where these Shield tanks were able to do well even against casters. As for the Blood Craze nerf it will obviously impact specs other than just shield tanks, but we’ve seen it do significantly better than other comparable talents for a while now. It was time.

  • Backstab can no longer trigger the Waylay effect.
  • Sinister Calling (RE) no longer increases the damage of Backstab.
  • Master of Subtlety now lasts for 10 seconds, from 6. 
  • Wound Poison has had its damage reduced by 40% 


Backstab builds saw tremendous success in the previous season with their heavy burst damage. At the same time, Stealth builds aren’t as scary as they were in the past. Our aim with these changes is to reduce some of the raw power attached to Backstab without hurting stealth builds. 

There, now with those anticipated nerfs out of the way let’s zoom out a bit and look at some more fundamental changes. I should mention that we’ll also update the PvP mods of many abilities with the patch, but this post I’ll focus on the bigger picture stuff.

  • Most stuns have had their durations reduced by 0.5 or 1 second.
  • Most root/immobilize effects have had their durations reduced by 1 or 2 seconds.
  • Blink has had its cooldown increased to 25 seconds, from 18. 
  • Hand of Freedom has had its cooldown increased to 35 seconds, from 25.
  • Seal of Justice has been changed from a stun to an immobilize.
  • Blazing Speed now gives you a 33/66/100% chance when taking damage while being below 35% health to increase your movement speed by 50% and dispel all movement impairing effects. This effect lasts 4 seconds and can only occur every 30 seconds.


What we hope to accomplish these changes is to somewhat reduce the power of these powerful CC effects, while also making Blink and Hand of Freedom less mandatory. Stuns are already an often overpowering tool that the vast majority of PvP builds make use of, and especially with Arenas coming we felt the importance of both stuns and stunbreaks would be excessive. 

It’s worth noting also that the increased Blink cooldown will mean that there can be short window of vulnerability where the diminishing returns may have reset before the cooldown of Blink has finished. Prior to this change it was possible to permanently either have Blink ready or have stuns be reduced to half their duration by diminishing returns. With these changes Blink will still be an exceptionally strong ability, but players will have to watch for that window of vulnerability.
We have also reworked the effect of Seal of Justice, in an effort to reduce randomness. Melee players can already automatically and without spending a GCD apply many powerful effects – slows, healing reductions, even cast speed and attack power reductions. Being able to apply a stun automatically, outside of the action economy, and a stun that also is on a separate Diminishing Return category than your other stuns, was just too powerful. The new Seal of Justice will still be useful to prevent people fleeing, but won’t be quite as overwhelming.
As a part of this we have also reworked the effects of Blazing Speed. It used to be a very random effect, which if you were lucky could proc as soon as you got hit and If you were unlucky would be a total waste of talent essences. The unpredictable nature also made it frustrating to play against since it could proc right when you apply your slow, allowing your target to escape without really giving you any way of preventing it. With this new design it’ll still be powerful, but more predictable and designed in a way that enables counterplay.

Actually, speaking of counterplay:

  • Deterrence is now cancelled by disarm effects.
  • Dispersion has had its duration reduced to 5 seconds, from 6. 
  • Dispersion no longer grants slow immunity, but still removes slows on use. 


Hype.

This is one of the changes I’m most excited for. These abilities were exceptionally powerful, especially for group PvP, since they almost didn’t have any counterplay in the way that other powerful defensives like Divine Shield and Ice Block do. Our hope with these changes together with the changes to stuns and roots is that they’ll contribute to developing a fun and engaging group wPvP and arena meta. 

Alright then. I’ve given you some nerfs and I’ve given you some more general PvP changes, but nothing yet to really get hyped about playing. I know I mentioned we have some buffs in store and will be rolling them out as the season goes on, but there are also some buffs we were so excited about that we didn’t want to wait with releasing them. Hope that’s okay. 

  • Hunter stings now stack without any limitation, meaning that one player can put several stings on the same target. 
  • Scorpid Sting no longer reduces the targets hit chance, but instead reduces the targets armor and resistances. These effects do not stack with other similar debuffs. 
  • Steady Shot is now castable while moving. (New ranks have also been added, starting at level 30.)
  • Multi-shot is now a true instant ability and can now be cast while running. 
  • Explosive Shot ticks now deal damage to all enemies within 5 yards of the target. 
  • Piercing Shots now also reduces periodic healing taken by 10/20/30%. This does not stack with other similar effects. 


Builds using these hunter abilities have fallen out of fashion as of late. Since the Deadly Brew range nerf we’ve reduced some PvP mods and changed some scalings, but for the most part the changes haven’t really added anything new. Well, here you go.

I won’t go too much into detail about these changes - it’s better you explore the new possibilities yourselves. We’ll be looking at both damage numbers and at making further tweaks as the season goes on, but for now we’re really excited to see how this new kit plays out.

A commonly mentioned issue with hunter-oriented builds is that they often feel weak without a pet. We get training and managing a pet isn’t for everyone, and have this for you:

  • *NEW* Survival Hunter talent
  • Lone Wolf: The damage of your Hunter abilities and auto-shots is increased by 5/10% while you do not have a pet active.

This talent will be available in the Survival tree, replacing the Improved Tracking talent. Our aim here is to provide an option that bridges some of the power gap for players who for one reason or another don’t want to play with a pet. 

Speaking of furries...

  • Mangle (Cat) has had its base damage reduced by 30% and scaling increased by 20%. 
  • Mangle (Cat) now deals 15% reduced damage in PvP, from 20% 
  • Savage Fury now gives the same damage bonus to Shred as it does to the other affected abilities. 
  • Shredding Attacks now reduces the energy cost of shred by 10/20, from 9/18.
  • Infected Wounds now also reduces periodic healing taken by 10/20/30%. This does not stack with other similar effects. 

Pretty straight-forward changes here. Mangle has for a long time, due to high base damage, performed disproportionately well on earlier gear levels but then dropped off in later tiers. Shred is trickier to use than Mangle, and before this buff there was little point in using it at all.

  • Scorch has had its damage increased by 15%
  • Scorch now deals 10% reduced damage in PvP (from dealing 10% increased damage).
  • The Pyroblast damage bonus from Hot Streak no longer applies in PvP. 
  • Flame Throwing now also reduces the cast time of your Fireball by 0.25/0.5 seconds. This effect becomes inactive for 15 seconds after use. 

We’ve seen a lot of PvP success from Hot Streak Pyroblast builds recently, and hope that these changes will allow some more options and make the ability mix feel more well-rounded.

  • Chain Heal has had its base heal increased by roughly 35% for all ranks. 
  • Healing Way now also affects Chain Heal and Earth Shield. 
  • Earth Shield has had its base heal and scaling reduced by 15%. 
  • Improved Earth Shield now grants one extra stack of Earth Shield, from two.
  • Earth's Blessing no longer has an internal cooldown. 


When we redesigned the Reaching Recovery RE, we promised we’d look at the results and then retune Chain Heal accordingly. A lot of players reacted positively to the new RE design, reducing the drop-off of Chain Heal jumps, but the numbers still weren’t there. This should help.

As for the Earth Shield changes, we wanted to make it more powerful in PvE while reducing its effectiveness in PvP, where it in spite of several nerfs continues to be very effective.

Lastly, we are continuing to invent ways to make some of the less powerful abilities more interesting. Here’s one that will go live with Season 5:

  • Hand of Salvation now lasts for 6 seconds, and in addition to reducing threat also attempts to dispel a harmful magic effect every 2 seconds.

We look forward to seeing all the creative uses you will find for this.

That wraps up the changes I wanted to discuss here. We’ve covered most of the bigger changes, but the actual changelog will end up being more than twice as long as what I’ve given you here. We still have to finalize some things - like making final decisions on which of these changes only make it to seasonal and which will immediately make it to legacy as well, and exactly what changes we want to make to PvP mods - so I’ll get back to that for now. 

Looking forward to hearing your responses to this. I’ll try to do my best to answer all your questions, but we also have the Season 5 deadline to keep, so please bear with me if I’m slow. Once that’s all done we’ll start looking at the next balance updates, which is likely to contain more buffs to underused abilities (we have a cool idea for Inner Focus that I’m excited about), and probably some attention to healers. I won’t spoil anything, but I can let you know that we have big plans for Greater Heal.

Last of all, I can’t describe how excited I am to see how the arena meta develops. I think it’ll be so good for the PvP scene on Ascension. What kind of setups do you think are going to be the strongest? 
 

Edited by Nimzo

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With these incoming Chain Heal changes please fix the T2 shaman 3setbonus aswell while you're at it :) (oh, and shaman t2.5 3set wasn't increasing healing on targets with earth shield last i checked, that would help too).

Only major healing pve spec (not counting meme options like LHW, FoL, lesser heal/heal) still lacking love now is Greater Heal.

Edited by dinmamma

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Just looking for a little more detail on these 3:

> Mangle has had its base damage reduced by 30% and scaling increased by 20%.

Does this apply to both Mangle (Bear) and Mangle (Cat)?

> Infected Wounds now also reduces periodic healing taken by 10/20/30%. This does not stack with other similar effects.

Will this also be applied by the RE or only the talent?

> Hand of Salvation now lasts for 6 seconds, and in addition to reducing threat also attempts to dispel a harmful magic effect every 2 seconds.

Will the threat reduction per second be buffed to account for the lower duration?

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Love the changes boys and the buffs to chain heal are exactly what the build needed.

From a pvp perspective your changes to defensives/CCs is a great direction to start looking at too.

I do have a minor issue and that is the big heals in pvp are still going to be useless because of the large amounts of kick / little amount of cast protection - even with fake casting big heals are too slow to realistically run in a pvp scenario it also feels like aids if you don't have good protection. HoTs is still going to be a dominant healer in pvp and even with the changes you made to chain heal (love em btw) HoTs is still going to be the preferred build purely because of ability to have easy healing up time without the problem of being interupted.

It's going to be a pain to hardcast even with these great changes to seal of justice and such - the root really hasn't been dealt with just bandaged at the minute that alleviates the mini stun locks of melee. 

Do you guys plan to address this issue with big hard casts like fireball/holy light/greater heal being bad to play with in pvp? 

On a similar note Greater Heal has been aweful compared to its compatriots of Holy Light/Healing wave for a long time will we be seeing any changes to this spell similar to what chain heal received?

 

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I dont understand why you nerf bloodcraze again when the literal 2 speccs that you wanted to nerf dont even use this talent, since theyre not allocating into stamina at all but rather go for str/agi. 

 

All you did was to nerf anything that isnt a holy hybrid or blocktank which have stamina as their defensive layer and get the little bit of sustain from flat% healing ... which in most cases was their only way to get some health back. 

 

Unbelievable actually. 

 

You kinda ruined second wind the same fucking way before... 

 

As for the increased duration on freedom and blink ... this will lead into a huge kite fiesta against any melee in no time especially with the increased utility given to hunters. theyll eat melees for breakfast now.

Arcane Mage: Slow will become a must pickup now since it got buffed immensely passively with these changes. 

 

With steady shot being useable while running i hope that youll give the same treatment to slam for the melee counterpart? 

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Priest likes this.

Really good work guys ❤️

The Seal of Justice, Blink and Freedom nerfs stood out to me the most.

The only thing i may come to disagree with here regarding arena is the Disarm and Deterrence counter, because..
there is already a counter for this, currently Cheap Shot brakes Deterrence and they continue to take dmg for the stuns duration
from all sources, this means Shadow Dance is already an existing counter to Deterrence, being able to prevent it and cancel it with
disarms as well, may benefit heavy burst teams too much considering Bubble/Block will be Shattered.

 

Edited by Ashsj1992

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51 minutes ago, Nimzo said:

Hunter stings now stack without any limitation, meaning that one player can put several stings on the same target. 

How is the interaction with Chimera Shot ? will it trigger all sting effects ?

51 minutes ago, Nimzo said:

Piercing Shots now also reduces periodic healing taken by 10/20/30%. This does not stack with other similar effects. 

This looks kind of pointles to me since there is no reason not to take Aimed Shot and Aimed Shot being the 1. stronger and 2. more reliable (no crit RNG) effect.

 

51 minutes ago, Nimzo said:

Lone Wolf: The damage of your Hunter abilities and auto-shots is increased by 5/10% while you do not have a pet active.

Does this apply to the entire Hunter Class mask or is it a selection of abilities? Meaning , does this include shots, stings, traps, melee abilities etc.

Edited by Vedartha

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9 minutes ago, Vedartha said:

This looks kind of pointles to me since there is no reason not to take Aimed Shot and Aimed Shot being the 1. stronger and 2. more reliable (no crit RNG) effect.

I'm pretty sure this is an additive function on top of the healing reduction - this will shut down HoT healers completely which is a great buff because HoT Healers will receive a 50% healing reduction from Aimed shot and an additional 30% from Piercing shots which is super easy to get off on an aimed shot build. Hunters have not been a reliable threat in pvp for a while and considering the main meta for healers in pvp is HoTs still even with these changes, this now allows hunters to become a spec that can shut that shit down!

 

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1 hour ago, Peel2g said:

As for the increased duration on freedom and blink ... this will lead into a huge kite fiesta against any melee in no time especially with the increased utility given to hunters. theyll eat melees for breakfast now.


You should be much happier..  thats alot of moaning for one of the best balance patchs i have seen from Ascention.

Anyway, the extra CD duration should make no difference in a 1v1 with melee and hunter, a good melee should be killing a Hunter
within a time window before it  becomes an issue, unless the Hunter is a Tank?  I count 3-4 GCDs to land a kill.
In Arena, its less of an issue, as you have pillers to los.

Edited by Ashsj1992

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1 hour ago, Nimzo said:

Explosive Shot ticks now deal damage to all enemies within 5 yards of the target. 

Explosive Shots always needs to compede with Arcane Shot, in the past Arcane Shot was allways the better pick, not cause Explosive is a bad spell but more cause Arcane Shot has more and better supporting talents. I think it fits that the shot explodes and deals AE damage but 5 yards is to small. Will not be reliable. Explosive Shot will stay behind Arcane Shot.

Edited by Vedartha

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1 minute ago, Vedartha said:

Explosive Shots always needs to compede with Arcane Shot, in the past Arcane Shot was allways the better pick, not cause explosiveis a bad spell but more cause Arcane Shot has more and better supporting talents. I think it fits that the shot explodes and deals AE damage but 5 yards is to small. Will not be reliable. Explosive Shot will stay behind Arcane Shot.

Yes this is true Arcane Shot has just more REs and talents making it much harder than Explosive shot which is lame because Explosive shot is a harder investment to begin with - will we end up seeing an introduction of more res or an expansion on talents to include explosive shot to make it more competitive?

 

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Must just be includet by Marked for Dead and Piercing Shots and its + - even. Or see that Lock and Load finaly becomes a usefull talent and grants an additional benefit to Explosive Shot.

Edited by Vedartha

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I get the reasoning behind the Blood Craze nerf, but since Recuperate/Second Wind got nerfed, many PvP tanks haven't had a lot of options outside of Earth Shield for sustain. 

If you're going to gut all forms of % hrealth regen, please give us something to compensate.

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First of all - thanks for all your responses! Like I mentioned all of this is subject to change, and the final changelog will contain a lot more changes than these, but it feels great to be able to share these major changes with you and get some feedback. 
 

3 hours ago, dinmamma said:

With these incoming Chain Heal changes please fix the T2 shaman 3setbonus aswell while you're at it :) (oh, and shaman t2.5 3set wasn't increasing healing on targets with earth shield last i checked, that would help too).

Only major healing pve spec (not counting meme options like LHW, FoL, lesser heal/heal) still lacking love now is Greater Heal.

Yup, set bonuses and Greater Heal are already on our list for things to look at next. I didn't know there's an issue with the Ten Storms 3-piece though - will look into it! 
 

3 hours ago, Skray said:

Just looking for a little more detail on these 3:

> Mangle has had its base damage reduced by 30% and scaling increased by 20%.

Does this apply to both Mangle (Bear) and Mangle (Cat)?

> Infected Wounds now also reduces periodic healing taken by 10/20/30%. This does not stack with other similar effects.

Will this also be applied by the RE or only the talent?

> Hand of Salvation now lasts for 6 seconds, and in addition to reducing threat also attempts to dispel a harmful magic effect every 2 seconds.

Will the threat reduction per second be buffed to account for the lower duration?

Good questions. The Mangle change is for Cat mangle only - I'll edit the post to clarify.

Infected Wounds will be applied both by the RE and the talent te way it looks now, but that may change.

Regarding Hand of Salvation I'll have to double check to be sure, but our intention isn't to reduce its power in PvE. We'll make sure it's still good.
 

3 hours ago, tumnus0028 said:

Love the changes boys and the buffs to chain heal are exactly what the build needed.

From a pvp perspective your changes to defensives/CCs is a great direction to start looking at too.

I do have a minor issue and that is the big heals in pvp are still going to be useless because of the large amounts of kick / little amount of cast protection - even with fake casting big heals are too slow to realistically run in a pvp scenario it also feels like aids if you don't have good protection. HoTs is still going to be a dominant healer in pvp and even with the changes you made to chain heal (love em btw) HoTs is still going to be the preferred build purely because of ability to have easy healing up time without the problem of being interupted.

We agree that hardcasting heals in PvP hasn't been the same ever since Burning Determination got changed, and that these healers have fallen behind relative to HoT and PWS healers. This is definitely something we'll look at for future changes. As a general rule, we want to try to encourage PvP playstyles that have counterplay. Spamming instant casts (like HoT healers) used not to have much, but with the additive 30% HoT reduction available from three sources rather than just Shadow Embrace, their strength might change. 
 

3 hours ago, Peel2g said:

I dont understand why you nerf bloodcraze again when the literal 2 speccs that you wanted to nerf dont even use this talent, since theyre not allocating into stamina at all but rather go for str/agi. 

As for the increased duration on freedom and blink ... this will lead into a huge kite fiesta against any melee in no time especially with the increased utility given to hunters. theyll eat melees for breakfast now.

Arcane Mage: Slow will become a must pickup now since it got buffed immensely passively with these changes. 

With steady shot being useable while running i hope that youll give the same treatment to slam for the melee counterpart? 

Blood craze was way stronger than other passive health regeneration talents, and we think that a game design where players get high health pools and good self-sustain just by allocating stamina and spending a couple talent points isn't without its problems. Looking at the Survey, a lot of players agreed as well, These builds will still be strong, just not as strong.

Regarding the melee/caster meta - we'll see! Actually looking forward to it a lot.

The Slam change definitely isn't ruled out as a possibility. Slam needs something in PvP for sure, but we've had some other ideas for it too. We'll see!
 

3 hours ago, Ashsj1992 said:

Priest likes this.

Really good work guys ❤️

The Seal of Justice, Blink and Freedom nerfs stood out to me the most.

The only thing i may come to disagree with here regarding arena is the Disarm and Deterrence counter, because..
there is already a counter for this, currently Cheap Shot brakes Deterrence and they continue to take dmg for the stuns duration
from all sources, this means Shadow Dance is already an existing counter to Deterrence, being able to prevent it and cancel it with
disarms as well, may benefit heavy burst teams too much considering Bubble/Block will be Shattered.

Thanks for the positive words! ❤️ 

Cheap Shot was indeed a counter to deterrence, and it will continue to be. It was however a mechanic that a lot of players didn't know about, and a lot of builds were unable to make room for. A lot of the time it is awkward to use, especially for caster builds. At the same time Deterrence had a much shorter cooldown than the "real" immunities like Divine Shield and Ice Block and was arguably more powerful for group fights due to being so difficult to counter. 

It's possible that giving too many counters to strong defensive cooldowns will encourage a rushdown group pvp meta where players are hard focused and killed through their immunities, but the alternative of having to constantly target swapp because whenever a player gets low there is another strong defensive cooldown to pull out is something we've seen a lot of in the past and wanted to move awy from a little. We'll keep our eyes on this. 
 

3 hours ago, Vedartha said:

How is the interaction with Chimera Shot ? will it trigger all sting effects ?

This looks kind of pointles to me since there is no reason not to take Aimed Shot and Aimed Shot being the 1. stronger and 2. more reliable (no crit RNG) effect.

Does this apply to the entire Hunter Class mask or is it a selection of abilities? Meaning , does this include shots, stings, traps, melee abilities etc.

1) That's the plan. We'll also be making some to the Chimera shot effects so that it doesn't become too strong in PvP. More details to come.

2) Couldn't have answered thsi better than tumnus0028 did. The effects will stack. HoT healers beware.

3) As far as I know it includes absolutely every hunter ability that can deal damage. Melee hunters will be able to use it too, but it won't affect their auto-attacks. It will affect auto-shot, however.
 

3 hours ago, Vedartha said:

Must just be includet by Marked for Dead and Piercing Shots and its + - even. Or see that Lock and Load finaly becomes a usefull talent and grants an additional benefit to Explosive Shot.

We've already started to loko at other ways of buffing Explosive Shot, but first wanted to see how players find the new AoE effect. I've tested it and can tell you it's a lot of fun.

 

1 hour ago, Galenorla said:

I get the reasoning behind the Blood Craze nerf, but since Recuperate/Second Wind got nerfed, many PvP tanks haven't had a lot of options outside of Earth Shield for sustain. 

If you're going to gut all forms of % hrealth regen, please give us something to compensate.

We'll certainly monitor how this change shifts these builds and adapt. Generally, as I mentioned before, we aren't crazy about the idea of a spec that both gets a massive health pool (and therefore is difficult to burst down) and good sustain (and therefore is difficult to wear down slowly) at the same time - especially not when most of that sustain is passive. It's quite possible that we'll look at the healing from abilities like Victory Rush or Bloodthirst, or perhaps some other new ability giving self-healing options. Stay tuned! 

 

Thanks again to all of you for you responses! ❤️ 

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7 hours ago, Nimzo said:

Touched by the Light now grants spell damage rather than spell power.

If you're targeting holy hybrids specifically, why do you do a general nerf like this?
This will hurt every melee ALOT who intends on going sustain, not just holy hybrids. You could've just seperated the damage/healing from eachother and put the healing on another talent that holy hybrids would usually not pick, meaning they'd have to sacrifice 3 more points for the same bonus.

Honestly super sad to see you gut specs you arent intentionally going for again and again. Atm a fully sustain-invested melee has like an average of 400~ healing power with like 2,5k AP, and will lose an avg of 75-100 healing power from this alone (that's 1/4 of their healing power btw...). Any other sustain spec has to sacrifice damage for healing - this talent included. The reason why holy hybrids are broken is because they have both damage AND healing bundled together in several talents. Just seperate the bonuses, and you could've easily avoided this problem without ruining other peoples hard work on their specs...


I kinda feel like this change will hurt so much more for the average melee sustain build than a holy hybrid sustain build, as they can get the healing power from gear anyway (and melee sustain had better scaling with this coz they naturally had more STR than a holy hybrid).
Especially since it will still increase holy healing crits - it's still healing and dmg combined into 1 for holy hybrids, whereas the talent beforehand was just pure healing power you had to sacrifice for damage in any other melee sustain spec.

Ironically this change to the talent will be the final nail in the coffin for any other melee sustain spec THAN holy hybrids. Ripperino.

Edited by Beastly

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Blazing Speed was fine as it was. The unpredictable part made it fun. Now it's not even worth putting 3 points in there, since a root breaker with 50% speed for 4 sec at 35% doesn't make sense at all. Should've kept it like the 10% chance it was and a longer internal cooldown like 15sec instead of 30sec, which completely kills it. Also Blood Craze... God.... not everyone using it was running a tank build.

Edited by razorevano

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1 hour ago, razorevano said:

Blazing Speed was fine as it was. The unpredictable part made it fun. Now it's not even worth putting 3 points in there, since a root breaker with 50% speed for 4 sec at 35% doesn't make sense at all. Should've kept it like the 4% chance it was and a longer internal cooldown like 15sec instead of 30sec, which completely kills it. Also Blood Craze... God.... not everyone using it was running a tank build.

yea with 1 point or a single RE would be enough since 33% chance to trigger vs mele hits is already huge(and most likely guaranteed to trigger), before, some specs used to stack it, i believe now with the changes its mandatory to iether have 1 piece of gear with the RE or atleast 1 point in it. The value you get with the new changes for a single point is to much to pass out. If im right and its worth it for everyone to invest in it, it will be terrible and unbalanced, and if its so bad no one uses it then its also unbalanced. It was at a desirable state in which few people used it. 

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6 hours ago, Nimzo said:

Blood craze was way stronger than other passive health regeneration talents, and we think that a game design where players get high health pools and good self-sustain just by allocating stamina and spending a couple talent points isn't without its problems. Looking at the Survey, a lot of players agreed as well, These builds will still be strong, just not as strong.

Regarding the melee/caster meta - we'll see! Actually looking forward to it a lot.

The Slam change definitely isn't ruled out as a possibility. Slam needs something in PvP for sure, but we've had some other ideas for it too. We'll see!

its not as easy as you describe it.
Making use out of %-health recovery talent isnt just done with "allocating into stam and picking some of the %-stamina talents. That coming of head balance is quite a letdown tbh.

It starts off with your gear choices you make. If you want a healthpool that is high enough to make %-healing a viable option you you always prefer stamina over dps stats. You then have to further back up your increased healthpool with defensive talent choices such as parry/dodge/flat phys dr and flat mr dr or youll just end up surving 1 more hit if you dont do so, which further decreases your dps output--> keyword EHP. Simply allocating stam and have some stam talents wont do anything for your EHP if you cant back it up further youll just end up being a papertank. You making it look like that everyone who has more than 8k HP and picked bloodcrazee automatically transformed into a hypersustain build while this cant be further from the truth.



Just to put the bloodcraze nerf into perspective with some numbers.

Lets say you have 10k hp ... in the unnerfed state bloodcraze healed 1% of your hp every second.(6% over 6 seconds with 3/3 points spent) --> Meaning it takes 100 seconds to recover your entire healthpool (100 health per second). 200 seconds when you have MS on you (50 health per second).

The nerfed bloodcraze now recovers 0.375% health per second (37.5 hp/s) and 0.1875% (18.7 hp/s) with MS effect on you. Which equals a whooping 266 seconds without and 533 seconds with MS on you to recover youre entire health pool. THAT IS 9 MINUTES WITH MS EFFECT ON YOU ... do you think thats justified in any way ? Mind you this is a 3-Pointer aswell.

you completely killed that talent with that ridiculous 10 second icd.

Edited by Peel2g
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5 hours ago, Beastly said:

If you're targeting holy hybrids specifically, why do you do a general nerf like this?
This will hurt every melee ALOT who intends on going sustain, not just holy hybrids. You could've just seperated the damage/healing from eachother and put the healing on another talent that holy hybrids would usually not pick, meaning they'd have to sacrifice 3 more points for the same bonus.

Honestly super sad to see you gut specs you arent intentionally going for again and again. Atm a fully sustain-invested melee has like an average of 400~ healing power with like 2,5k AP, and will lose an avg of 75-100 healing power from this alone (that's 1/4 of their healing power btw...). Any other sustain spec has to sacrifice damage for healing - this talent included. The reason why holy hybrids are broken is because they have both damage AND healing bundled together in several talents. Just seperate the bonuses, and you could've easily avoided this problem without ruining other peoples hard work on their specs...


I kinda feel like this change will hurt so much more for the average melee sustain build than a holy hybrid sustain build, as they can get the healing power from gear anyway (and melee sustain had better scaling with this coz they naturally had more STR than a holy hybrid).
Especially since it will still increase holy healing crits - it's still healing and dmg combined into 1 for holy hybrids, whereas the talent beforehand was just pure healing power you had to sacrifice for damage in any other melee sustain spec.

Ironically this change to the talent will be the final nail in the coffin for any other melee sustain spec THAN holy hybrids. Ripperino.

First of all tahnks for your input! The reason we decided to nerf Touched by the Light is that it's an immensely strong talent that both increases your offensive spell damage and your healing power (and has that very poerful critical heal effect). As you have no doubt noticed we have been working on normalizing melee sustain for a while, with the last big change being that Sheath of Light buff. This patch we knew we needed to hit holy hybrid sustain, which has been overperforming, and the problem of hybrid sustain is that they get so much free healing from wearing spellpower gear. It didn't make sense that they'd get free healing from this talent as well.

It's still a strong talent, and fully I expect most hybrids who currently use it to continue to do so after the nerf.
 

4 hours ago, razorevano said:

Blazing Speed was fine as it was. The unpredictable part made it fun. Now it's not even worth putting 3 points in there, since a root breaker with 50% speed for 4 sec at 35% doesn't make sense at all. Should've kept it like the 10% chance it was and a longer internal cooldown like 15sec instead of 30sec, which completely kills it. Also Blood Craze... God.... not everyone using it was running a tank build.

Unpredictable can be fun, but it can also be terribly frustrating. Generally it doesn't encourage the kind of gameplay we want to encourage. There is arleady enough randomness built into the game. Appreciate the feedback though! We're confident that Blazing Speed will still be a good talent and a lot of fun.

 

1 hour ago, Peel2g said:

its not as easy as you describe it.
Making use out of %-health recovery talent isnt just done with "allocating into stam and picking some of the %-stamina talents. That coming of head balance is quite a letdown tbh.

It starts off with your gear choices you make. If you want a healthpool that is high enough to make %-healing a viable option you you always prefer stamina over dps stats. You then have to further back up your increased healthpool with defensive talent choices such as parry/dodge/flat phys dr and flat mr dr or youll just end up surving 1 more hit if you dont do so, which further decreases your dps output--> keyword EHP. Simply allocating stam and have some stam talents wont do anything for your EHP if you cant back it up further youll just end up being a papertank. You making it look like that everyone who has more than 8k HP and picked bloodcrazee automatically transformed into a hypersustain build while this cant be further from the truth.

Just to put the bloodcraze nerf into perspective with some numbers.

Lets say you have 10k hp ... in the unnerfed state bloodcraze healed 1% of your hp every second.(6% over 6 seconds with 3/3 points spent) --> Meaning it takes 100 seconds to recover your entire healthpool (100 health per second). 200 seconds when you have MS on you (50 health per second).

The nerfed bloodcraze now recovers 0.375% health per second (37.5 hp/s) and 0.1875% (18.7 hp/s) with MS effect on you. Which equals a whooping 266 seconds without and 533 seconds with MS on you to recover youre entire health pool. THAT IS 9 MINUTES WITH MS EFFECT ON YOU ... do you think thats justified in any way ? Mind you this is a 3-Pointer aswell.

you completely killed that talent with that ridiculous 10 second icd.

Thanks for your feedback! Melee sustain is defnitely something we'll keep working with. As was pointed out in a discussion about this on Discord, the value of Blood Craze is still far higher than other talents that for example offer % damage reduction, which is another tanky stat that also scales with your effective health pool. The way that Blood Craze stacked with health pools made it so that some geared players basically became incinvible when fighting new players (or each other). Passively. Not very fun,

With that said though we do have more changes in the works, and have already begun discussing implementing new options for melee sustain. We just have to be careful here, so that sustain is something that helps you live longer but without making you virtually unkillable.

 

Again as a general reminder, the changes listed here aren't final and the list is by no means complete. More stuff will change. 

Keep the feedback coming! ❤️

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4 hours ago, Nimzo said:

 This patch we knew we needed to hit holy hybrid sustain, which has been overperforming, and the problem of hybrid sustain is that they get so much free healing from wearing spellpower gear. It didn't make sense that they'd get free healing from this talent as well.

So you're basically killing off every other melee sustain spec for a somewhat minor nerf to holy hybrid specs. Agi sustain is laughable, it simply doesn't scale well enough to be worth it for anything but cats and perhaps melee hunters if you stretch it a bit. People had to think outside the box and found out the only viable option left was Str conversion - now that has been ruined aswell. There's no direction left to turn to for sustain players. Sure, I can use the points and get more damage, but at some point a sustain build is just not a sustain build anymore. Running around with 300 healing power with half ur TE/AE invested into healing seems like a bad joke.

 

4 hours ago, Nimzo said:

It's still a strong talent, and fully I expect most hybrids who currently use it to continue to do so after the nerf.

That's exactly my point... It's still a strong talent for Holy Hybrids ONLY. They still benefit greatly from this, while every other melee sustain loses a large chunk of the fairly small healing power they have left. I even gave you a super simple solution to the problem - remove the healing power and put it somewhere else, so they will have to sacrifice 3 TE to get it back. Or perhaps just remove the extra holy crit healing (or even BETTER, make FoL through AoW not able to crit), as noone but holy hybrids actually utilize it at all... (LHW, Rejuv, Riptide, Earth Shield are all nature)

There's simply no good reasoning to justify the fact that you're taking a fairly small cut from holy hybrids sustain and in turn just completely shit on every other melee sustain spec that's around nowadays.

Who does this "holy hybrid nerf" really hit the hardest in the end? A holy hybrid with 640 healing power instead of 700, or a str stacking melee sustain with 300 healing power instead of 400?

EDIT: just checked ingame, I have 343 healing power without str of earth totem and self-buffed, fully invested into healing power conversion - both agi and strength. I'll be close to 250 when this goes through lol... With BoK dispelled it'll go even lower and I'll hit an absolutely abysmal level of healing power. Ripperino indeed.

Edited by Beastly

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4 hours ago, Nimzo said:

The way that Blood Craze stacked with health pools made it so that some geared players basically became incinvible when fighting new players (or each other). Passively. Not very fun,

to even mention that while doing balance is outrageous. if you continue to balance under the premisse of having a geared player vs a new player then goodnight.

 

 

4 hours ago, Nimzo said:

the value of Blood Craze is still far higher than other talents that for example offer % damage reduction


mind proving that to me with actual numbers ?


if you cant i will do it for you
 

Lets assume a player has 10.000 Health and a fight lasts for 100 seconds and the enemy does  400 pvp dps.
Situation a) will be 6% damage reduction and no bloodcraze
Situation b) will be 0% dmg reduction but with bloodcraze


a) 400*100*0.94= 37.600 damage dealt (2400 negated)
b) 400*100 = 40.000 damage dealt , bloodcraze will heal for 6% every 16 seconds. 100/16=6.25 --> 6.25*6%=37.5% --> 10.000*0.375 = 3750 health recovered. Now add MS effect to that. 3750*0.5= 1875 health recovered

a) 2400 damage negated
b) 1875 health recovered


now its your turn to backup your claim that Bloodcrazes value is "FAR HIGHER" than any dr talent


sidenote: a flat 2%dr per point is actual one of the weaker ones that you can pick up ...some of them offer more like 3% per point which even further devalues bloodcraze. (9% dr would negate 3600 dmg in situation a)

sidenote 2: let it sink in slowly that over a fight lasting 100 seconds youll recover health equal to just 1 non-crt flash of light that a SoR hybrid does. which he exactly needs 1 gcd for.

sidenote 3: the value of bloodcraze further diminishes the less max HP the player has ... (with 8000 hp youll recover 1500 hp with MS effect effect in situation b)

example: 2: taking 3%dr per point and a player that has 8000 HP the values are like this

a) 3600 dmg negated
b) 1500 health recovered

Edited by Peel2g
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52 minutes ago, Beastly said:

Agi sustain is laughable, it simply doesn't scale well enough to be worth it for anything but cats and perhaps melee hunters if you stretch it a bit.

Thats a wrong comment tho. 

Agi sustain rn is just very close behind Hybrid sustain.. Both are top tier rn. Its just that many people think Agi sustain is bad cuz of the nerfs in the past but it clearly isnt ^^ You just have to build it right.. I sure know some people who barely lose any 1v1's in their Agi sustain spec :)

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