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Tacualeon

Limit quantity of subclasses allowed per character

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How to make a physical character in Andorhal.

 

-Pick an aura

-Pick a mage armor

-Pick a Seal

-Pick a hunter aspect

-Pick a paladin buff

 

 

Have you seen lots of people with the same skills?

 

Aspect of the beast? Why would any melee character not pick it?

Devotion aura? Why would any melee character not pick it?

Frost armor? Why would any melee character not pick it?

 

 

I think that by having too many options, we are having less options.

If players can spread as wide as 27 subclasses they will always pick the same 1-2 points bis wonders skills/talents out of efficiency.

 

They will hurt their own overall experience by always picking what's most efficient. Something that will lead to meta, cookie cutter builds with the same talents over and over again.

When there are no classes, everyone will pick what's most efficient. Everyone will pick frost armor over beast lore.

Players will kill their own fun, creativity and sense of discovery and wonder by picking efficiently.

 

 

I think devs should limit the range of skills you can have, to something like 4-5 classes (12-15 subclasses)

By limiting them, you are improving their enviroment, making them think creatively, and making them feel smart and resourseful about their choices.

 

By doing that, I think  Andorhal can get the best of both worlds: choose your own destiny (Andorhal), and think creatively, adapt and be unique of Darkmoon.

 

I wish I could upload images. My first bg and everyone had frost armor, aspect of the beast, a seal and a mage armor.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Tacualeon

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Yes you are right alot of players use some skills more than other.But limiting the skill points you are not fixing thinks out!Metabuilds,cookie and all that juz you mention will always be there! It might not be the 1st month it might not be the 1st 6 months, but eventually there will be a meta!! This discusion was made quit extencivly back when the only server was Sargeras.At the end the player base was kind split in the midle and devs disited to let it be as it is.Personaly id like morewith a cach but more skills more talents! What is that"cach" well there is an article in my sujestions that enatails rasing the lvl cap to 100(for all expancions and after WotLK comes out) and after you ding 100 have the option to reset your lvl back to 1 but this time with 1 more talent point 2 more skill points and 4 more atribut points.Lets see how meany will manage to make all  thous resets to become demygods if not gods(well GM are the demi gods and Devs the true gods but you tak my meaning!).

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Generalist should be weak when facing with a specialist in the same field.

 

I would like comparing Lol characters Ascension characters.

Can you transport the concept of being a generalist, and having a bit of everything efficient in your kit of skill to character progresion in ascension?

Some quotes from a post about the issue.

The problem with generalist champions in league.

Except them being weaker in any individual field.
The reason generalists are common picks is because they're safe picks, which in turn makes them good picks.
Every other specialist does what a generalist does in one particular area miles and leaps and bounds ahead.

 

The problem with generalist champions in any game is that they will either reliably perform anything you need them too, and thus always be the optimal pick, 

 

The problem with generalist champions is like OP said, they should be jack of all trades master of none, but they end up master of all because sometimes they don't have enough drawbacks in their kit

 

And I completely agree, they shouldn't excel at anything in particular. Their strength should be their flexibility. The problem lies in execution. When a generalist is strong, they are always the go-to pick.

 

 

No risk, no assesment, monotone, no challenge, no uniqueness, 

Strenghts and drawbacks are part of the identity.

Sacrifices and decisions are challenges.

Winning a melee combat against someone who ganked you, because you decided for a uncommon build and that talent, that skilled payed off is rewarding.

 

It also give people more motives to level up characters don't you think? Why level up multiple characters if you can have everything in one?

Edited by Tacualeon

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How about we don't forget that this server suppose to be "Classless experience with building your own hero". Obviously Meta will always be there, but limiting the spell you can pick (Cough Seasonals Cough) is a dumb idea. It limits the game and its idea in the first place. Sure, some of people will prefer Draft over picking abilities, but then everyone just farms the hell out of it to pick that one ability you actually need, while on Legacy you can do it with a gold charge of your wallet and no time spent. So why not just play Legacy? Raids are designed around them, and it actually bothers me that Ascension has to remove Boss Mechanics or dumb them down, making them more Tank n Spank, so Seasonals players can kill them...

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limiting the choices is not what Classless is about.

It really is not this complicated,
if abilities are always being picked such as Blink, then there cost should be increased to 3AE instead of 2AE
and abilities that are never picked should be 1AE instead of 2AE.
This has been mentioned many times here on the forums, this is no new subject.

Some personal advice, dont waste your time posting idea's like this on the forums, it will make no difference
There has been some seriously good idea's posted on here over the 2-3 years that i have seen and like 95% of them wasnt acknowledged
even when they have been acknowledged and dicussed (back when they actually comunicated with us) they still never made it into the game.

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20 hours ago, Mograine said:

How about we don't forget that this server suppose to be "Classless experience with building your own hero". Obviously Meta will always be there, but limiting the spell you can pick (Cough Seasonals Cough) is a dumb idea. It limits the game and its idea in the first place. Sure, some of people will prefer Draft over picking abilities, but then everyone just farms the hell out of it to pick that one ability you actually need, while on Legacy you can do it with a gold charge of your wallet and no time spent. So why not just play Legacy? Raids are designed around them, and it actually bothers me that Ascension has to remove Boss Mechanics or dumb them down, making them more Tank n Spank, so Seasonals players can kill them...

 

"Obviously Meta will always be there"

Yes, everyone will pick windfury, frost armor, a seal, an aura, a buff and possibly blink. Where is the fun in that?

 

"but limiting the spell you can pick (Cough Seasonals Cough)"

In seasonal you can't pick what you want, you pick from what you get.

 

"It limits the game"

Only if you want a sandbox game. What you call limit, I call a system.

Don't let them pick all the good skills with one character, so they have the incentives to level up many to catch them all. If people have many characters, there will be more pve.

 

 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Ashsj1992 said:

limiting the choices is not what Classless is about.

It really is not this complicated,
if abilities are always being picked such as Blink, then there cost should be increased to 3AE instead of 2AE
and abilities that are never picked should be 1AE instead of 2AE.
This has been mentioned many times here on the forums, this is no new subject.

Some personal advice, dont waste your time posting idea's like this on the forums, it will make no difference
There has been some seriously good idea's posted on here over the 2-3 years that i have seen and like 95% of them wasnt acknowledged
even when they have been acknowledged and dicussed (back when they actually comunicated with us) they still never made it into the game.

 

 

"limiting the choices is not what Classless is about."

It's not limiting but giving players a frame for their own good.

 

"It really is not this complicated,
if abilities are always being picked such as Blink, then there cost should be increased to 3AE instead of 2AE
and abilities that are never picked should be 1AE instead of 2AE."

That sounds like chasing a bone. Endlessly chasing what players decide to exploit next. Constanly nerfing and buffing the flavor of the month. 

Instead of reactively chasing the next flavour I suggest proactive actions.

 

 

"This has been mentioned many times here on the forums, this is no new subject."

Well, I'm different. I think I know best and I'm a strong willed person. Thank you.

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Here we go again. 

No, there is no need too limit pickable abilities. You choose if you want to be effective player or a roleplaying plebian. 

Every build have a counter mechanic, and these can found through theorycrafting and playtesting.  The entire idea of limiting abilities are against the conspet of ascension to begin with. 

Is it necessary balance stuff out? Sure. 

Is it necessary to completely change the entire foundation of ascension? No.

If you dont like it, get back to retail.

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15 hours ago, Tacualeon said:

"limiting the choices is not what Classless is about."

It's not limiting but giving players a frame for their own good.

It is limiting and before you can even go on to justifying your idea you need to achowlege that for the sake of your own debate.

Im sure there is flaws to be found in adjusting the AE costs but there is also many flaws in what your suggesting
for example, it doesnt matter what abilties there are to choose from players will always choose an ability like Blink in PvP
in this situations you would be simply removing its rival options from the game, hence the limitation.
So here its clear a nerf to Blink is required, which is essientally what increaseing its AE cost would do,
the issue you pointed out is unavoidable one way or another.

Edited by Ashsj1992

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6 hours ago, wutm8 said:

Here we go again. 

No, there is no need too limit pickable abilities. You choose if you want to be effective player or a roleplaying plebian. 

Every build have a counter mechanic, and these can found through theorycrafting and playtesting.  The entire idea of limiting abilities are against the conspet of ascension to begin with. 

Is it necessary balance stuff out? Sure. 

Is it necessary to completely change the entire foundation of ascension? No.

If you dont like it, get back to retail.

 

"You choose if you want to be effective player or a roleplaying plebian"

If you ever want to be invited to any decent raid you have to be effective. Can't you see the problem in that logic?

In other to stay competitive, you have to do what everyone else is doing.

 

 

"Every build have a counter mechanic"

Just pick the same one point wonder talents and skills and have better gear.

 

"If you dont like it, get back to retail."

I can make my own server.

 Whoever thought of this idea was a genious, but I think the execution could be much better and bring more players. I like the idea very much and I want servers full of people, that's why I'm trying to help.

 

Edited by Tacualeon

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5 hours ago, Ashsj1992 said:

It is limiting and before you can even go on to justifying your idea you need to achowlege that for the sake of your own debate.

Im sure there is flaws to be found in adjusting the AE costs but there is also many flaws in what your suggesting
for example, it doesnt matter what abilties there are to choose from players will always choose an ability like Blink in PvP
in this situations you would be simply removing its rival options from the game, hence the limitation.
So here its clear a nerf to Blink is required, which is essientally what increaseing its AE cost would do,
the issue you pointed out is unavoidable one way or another.

 

That still sounds like endlessly chasing and nerfing whatever flavour of the month people are exploiting.

Players need limits for their own sake.

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I feel like you didnt understand my last post at all.
Balancing is still needed in your suggestion as well, How is it any different?

Blink vs Every other spell in the game = Blink
Meaning anything rivaled agaisnt it is never going to be seen.
The solution? Balanceing.

Anyother example?
This is literrally what Retail WoW has been doing since Cata, there is always a meta in what abilities you pick.
One season every Rogue ran Death From Above, so they nerfed it then every rogue used
Marked for Death, then at the end of Legion they had too move it another choice selection bar as well.

On what planet is that better than increaseing Blinks AE cost too 3 from 2 and say increaseing its CD to 25-30
So players may not take this ability in PvP by there own choice without removing other abilities in the process.

Edited by Ashsj1992

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It is not what ascension is about but that could make for an interesting season idea. Like at the start you pick 2 or 3 classes and you are only allowed to spend abilities and talents points in these. That would at least make it for a different metagame where there is no clear winner builds.

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On 9/8/2019 at 9:03 PM, Tacualeon said:

How to make a physical character in Andorhal.

 

-Pick an aura

-Pick a mage armor

-Pick a Seal

-Pick a hunter aspect

-Pick a paladin buff

 

 

Have you seen lots of people with the same skills?

 

Aspect of the beast? Why would any melee character not pick it?

Devotion aura? Why would any melee character not pick it?

Frost armor? Why would any melee character not pick it?

 

 

I think that by having too many options, we are having less options.

If players can spread as wide as 27 subclasses they will always pick the same 1-2 points bis wonders skills/talents out of efficiency.

 

They will hurt their own overall experience by always picking what's most efficient. Something that will lead to meta, cookie cutter builds with the same talents over and over again.

When there are no classes, everyone will pick what's most efficient. Everyone will pick frost armor over beast lore.

Players will kill their own fun, creativity and sense of discovery and wonder by picking efficiently.

 

 

I think devs should limit the range of skills you can have, to something like 4-5 classes (12-15 subclasses)

By limiting them, you are improving their enviroment, making them think creatively, and making them feel smart and resourseful about their choices.

 

By doing that, I think  Andorhal can get the best of both worlds: choose your own destiny (Andorhal), and think creatively, adapt and be unique of Darkmoon.

 

I wish I could upload images. My first bg and everyone had frost armor, aspect of the beast, a seal and a mage armor.

 

 

 

 

 

I have a character on andorhal who does 4-6k dps

I don't use a seal, aura, armor, no pally buffs outside what my raid put on me.

they're not required at all to make a good melee build, you just conditioned your self into thinking that all melees need to be the same and haven't put effort in trying new builds and instead come to the fourms and complaine about how everything is the same.

There are tons of builds for melees that don't follow the meta and still do way more dps then what's considered the meta. yall just see the one dude in your guild who's geared and following a meta build and think that's top of the top dps there.

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