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Dev Update #79 Naxx Patch

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8 hours ago, rammsteinn said:

why no paladin changes? maelstrom weapon aren't the only hybrids out there! would like to see some seal/judgement buffs for pvp.

 

8 hours ago, kylezzz101 said:

No love for sp or hybrid based retribution paladin builds :(. it should still be viable ish  most likely just just barely for naxx (cant wait and were all rdy) but it looks like ap retribution paladin is going to come out king with the gear changes since were stuck using pally AQT gear set and we nearly have as much crit as an agi stacking retribution paladin and dmg based off our abilities that also scale with sp.

You guys do know that hybrid/seal/retri are currently the ONLY viable melee specs? One person in particular is absolutely dominating dps wise in PVP. Please don't buff them any more.

Other than that, please make ferocity 2/4/6 And maybe some changes for bears who prefer to wear 2h instead of a shield they can't use for blocking anyway.. (maybe something with the arms warrior talent 2-handed mastery)

Rest of the updates look promising

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2 hours ago, itswicky said:

It depends on the variant, but the highest performing ones usually are focusing on Agi and crit and deal competitive damage on single target and do very well on cleave. Other types that might focus more on spell power or haste are usually not quite so strong.

Will overkill ever get any changes to it, it's acutally worse then vitality now and it only lasts 20 seconds and seeing as we can't fd stealth anymore to refresh it's completely worthless.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, itswicky said:

 Tank builds are traditionally the strongest counter to melee builds in PvP. We've lowered their burst potential and their overall damage output. We haven't actually increased their effective damage mitigation in PvP versus spells.

1 more time. The problem with PvP Shield Tanks isn't the "burst potential" you re talking about.. They are not bursting at all.. They do like 600-800 Shield Slams on players.

I will give you a very common Scenario on LS WPVP rn: You run around in world. You walk into an block tank. At this point, if you re a melee you can already forget about having any chance of winning ^^
Now lets say you're a caster. Around 80%+ of all casters will already die cuz of "Gag Order" Talent / Silent in general and the 24/7 slow from poison. Everytime they use "Shield Slam" they also dispel a beneficial buff from their target may it be a buff or HoT. So they have a damaging ability which also dispels ? That are 2 globals in 1 Ability.
Its not like the dmg and endless sticking to you wouldnt be enough already.
Cuz of their mass avoidance and dmg reduction you can't kill them with sustained dmg.. The only possibility is playing full burst caster at this point. Smth like Chaosbolt for example. But I can promise you that those won't get of their Rotation even once to actually get those tanks to low HP since they have around 5+ ways of interrupting you. And if you manage to magicly get them down to low HP then they will use LoH/Bubble and you re basically done since going for full burst leaves you with nearly no kite/defensive abilities. Maybe only the Standard ones like PW:Shield / Bubble / Shadowfury will be in that specc.

I played Ascension for 1 1/2 years now and can promise that those "Nerfs" aren't adressing the problem at all.
People are getting forced to either always run from PvP Shield Tanks / Zerg them with more people or giving up their own build Fantasy and go tank themselves. 
Already met enough People who gave up their builds cuz they got forced into PvP Shield Tank to atleast stand a dhance.

PvP Shield Tank is like a fire.
For every specc there are some or atleast 1 counter speccs / abilities - Water

It sounds stupid but for this fire named "PvP Shield Tank" is no water / way to counter.. You only can counter this fire with fire rn. A specc should never be in that state in my opinion!

Edited by Toxec

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Reduced the damage of the AQ40 Striker 5 set bonus direct damage component by 25%.
Lock and Load - Now has a 5/10/15% chance to trigger its effect, from 2/4/6%. The cooldown of this effect has been lowered to 15 sec, from 22 sec.
Aimed Shot and Multi -Shot no longer share a cooldown.
Master Tactician - Reduced to 3 points. Now gives your ranged attacks a 20% chance to grant 3/6/9% critical strike chance with all ranged and melee attacks, from a 15% chance to grant 2/4/6/8/10% critical strike chance with all ranged and melee attacks.
Thrill of the Hunt - In addition to its current effect, now also grants a 33/66/100% chance for your Explosive Shot and Arcane Shot criticals to refund 1 sec of their cooldown, and for your Chimaera Shot, Multi -Shot and Aimed Shot criticals to refund 2 sec of their cooldown. This effect can only occur once per use of each shot.

 

I am only replying to the ranged portion of these updates since this is 90% of what I play and know. 

10/10

Thank you for listening to us and implementing what we really wanted. The aimed shot multishot CD was personally one of my issues and I am pleased to see it was addressed. 

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Just now, Doodlewang said:

Reduced the damage of the AQ40 Striker 5 set bonus direct damage component by 25%.
Lock and Load - Now has a 5/10/15% chance to trigger its effect, from 2/4/6%. The cooldown of this effect has been lowered to 15 sec, from 22 sec.
Aimed Shot and Multi -Shot no longer share a cooldown.
Master Tactician - Reduced to 3 points. Now gives your ranged attacks a 20% chance to grant 3/6/9% critical strike chance with all ranged and melee attacks, from a 15% chance to grant 2/4/6/8/10% critical strike chance with all ranged and melee attacks.
Thrill of the Hunt - In addition to its current effect, now also grants a 33/66/100% chance for your Explosive Shot and Arcane Shot criticals to refund 1 sec of their cooldown, and for your Chimaera Shot, Multi -Shot and Aimed Shot criticals to refund 2 sec of their cooldown. This effect can only occur once per use of each shot.

 

I am only replying to the ranged portion of these updates since this is 90% of what I play and know. 

10/10

Thank you for listening to us and implementing what we really wanted. The aimed shot multishot CD was personally one of my issues and I am pleased to see it was addressed. 

tbh hunters really didn't need a buff, as top end did pretty well if players knew how to build correct but hay I guess now we'll see 7k dps hunters again

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Also could frost get some love on ST you do about 4k give or take a few hundred, with full bis gear, (Ouro / dummy fight) While there is plenty of other caster builds that reaches 5k + these days
And for some reason you nerfed chilled to the bone to 2% without giving anything else back and even now with the arcane potancy fix, you "nerfed" frost even more, as you lose avarage crit

(you got PVP modifers now so buffs for PVE should not be an issue)

 

Edit: And for the love of god, buff Hurricane its actually so sad that i cry in fetal position every night before bed

 

@itswicky

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, itswicky said:

Tank builds are traditionally the strongest counter to melee builds in PvP. We've lowered their burst potential and their overall damage output. We haven't actually increased their effective damage mitigation in PvP versus spells.

As others have said, their burst potential was never a problem to begin with. It's the fact they have a built in magic dispel in their damage ability and is pretty much impossible to hit with any shape or form of a melee attack.

I don't understand how you can reply on this with "they're naturally a counter to melee". Would it be fair if a caster resisted 80% of their spells against a certain build aswell? Would you also be able to justify that by saying "it's just a natural counter to casters"? Is that really the type of PvP gameplay we're aiming for? Having certain builds just completely shit on every single caster or every single melee. They can literally stand half afk and just press a button or two here and there, and still win as long as they are facing you.
Oh and btw, this is not even to mention that shield tanks do very well vs casters too.

It completely destroys the point of playing melee. You can meet the most braindead player in world and you instantly know all you can do is RUN when you see they have shield equipped. There's literally 0 point in even trying, coz you can't hit them with ANYTHING.

I even got buffs for my build from these changes, but what does it even matter, I still won't be able to get single attack in. You could increase my damage by 200% and it would be the same outcome, coz my attacks simply don't go through.

Edited by Beastly

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7 hours ago, itswicky said:

Blizzard doesn't also heal 5 nearby targets and proc effects which both trigger from heals and damage. It's more aimed at PvP than at PvE potential.

11 hours ago, Peel2g said:

Then nerf it for PvP instead of slum dunking it for both? Hello? You have the tech, this is like the dumbest excuse.

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56 minutes ago, Doodlewang said:

Thrill of the Hunt - In addition to its current effect, now also grants a 33/66/100% chance for your Explosive Shot and Arcane Shot criticals to refund 1 sec of their cooldown, and for your

1. Will this apply to each Explosive Shot tick ?

2. Does the RE remains unchanged ?

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Posted (edited)

Also 1,5s polymorph seems broken. Haste applied on top of that and you will have 0 chance of ever countering that with travel form. Seems like you forgot how it was before the nerf, where casters could just instantly reset every fight whenever they wanted, and either reset the fight untill you burned all your shit and kill you, or run off to safety if they didn't have the means to do so. (this is already the case, but with this buff it will just make the issue even worse)

Edited by Beastly

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Posted (edited)

Really good work, i agree with most of this.
Although Stamina Tanks are still going to be an issue in PvP.

I think one of the biggest issues since the Spell Mastery nerf is alot of long casting spells are dead in the water
Sure they may work in a BG hero build in BGs, but try casting them while under the effects of a -30% cast time reduction from Slow/Numb
while being locked down with CC, before you can even think about using spells like these half the build must be invested into max Haste and CC
leaving little room for much else, which still doesnt make it competitive enough. 

A perfect Example of this is Fireball, casting this with -30% cast reduction is neerly impossible against a good player and the damage over time effect
prevents the build from running most of the good CC to setup multable casts, Fire mage also requires alot of crit, so going Haste instead means it does no dmg.

Another is Light/Wave/Great, a good Melee player can solo one of these healers in no time, unless they go full on tank and do no team healing.
Rejuvenation is the only healer core that is needed as it is miles in the lead this meta.

A 25% Haste loss, is one of the largest nerfs i have ever witnessed in an MMO, much more balanceing is still needed here.

I believe there needs to be some more cast reductions for some abilities and access to more Haste through talents/RE's
on top of that the -30% cast reductions should be reduced to -20%.

Edited by Ashsj1992

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Posted (edited)

Yeah most of these look solid. A definite 9/10. I would like to see a change to mortal strike next balance patch. A single attack with a slow, 60% heal reduction good damage and low CD and cost, and will cause a debuff if talented for it. Why doesn't my Holy Light or Greater Heal damage enemies around the healed target then?))

Edited by Hysteria

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Posted (edited)

...

You just got some buffs for Hunters?

Honestly think i need to make a post about Hunters or somthing
The majority of hunters dont know how to build a PvP hunter.

Its seems to me like Hunters play almost PvE builds in PvP and still expect to win 1v1's against top players.

Edited by Ashsj1992

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Just a dumb question not associated with the pve changes but have you ever considered making re that changes type of damage or healing ? For example changing specific spells like CoH to nature or Wild growth to holy or any kind of spell to a different element ?
Imo I don't think this will ever happen but just wondered if that idea has ever been brought up and what the devs think about this sort of re.   

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9 hours ago, itswicky said:

The PvE implications of this are very minor. As you generally know in an encounter when to expect incoming damage and you still have enough GCDs for 1 shield caster to keep a 10 man raid fully shielded and you still will require 2 shield casters if you want to keep your 25 man fully shielded. The change was intended to reduce the effectiveness in PvP where you can preshield before engaging a fight and wait for weakened soul to expire and get back to back shield effects before taking any damage.

So.. 

To do a full rotation of pws in 10man you need (1.132*9 + 1.5), 11.688s for GCD's and a flawless connection 0ms.

PWS will be up for 15sec, This gives you 3.312s of "free" time befor you need to start the rotation again. If you want to pre shield an ability you no longer have the power to do so, unless the tank doesn't take any damage.

While we at it, the RE [Strengthened Soul] reduces the Debuff of PWS by 1s stacking. If you use this you will have 0.312s of free time, add latency and you now have an RE that wont have its full potential at 3x.

You have made PWS a 1 button spec.

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5 minutes ago, Wigoor said:

So.. 

To do a full rotation of pws in 10man you need (1.132*9 + 1.5), 11.688s for GCD's and a flawless connection 0ms.

PWS will be up for 15sec, This gives you 3.312s of "free" time befor you need to start the rotation again. If you want to pre shield an ability you no longer have the power to do so, unless the tank doesn't take any damage.

While we at it, the RE [Strengthened Soul] reduces the Debuff of PWS by 1s stacking. If you use this you will have 0.312s of free time, add latency and you now have an RE that wont have its full potential at 3x.

You have made PWS a 1 button spec.

Think we all know that 1 button is what the Ascension team likes, Arcane missiles ONE BUTTON, Frostbolt, ONEBUTTON, Shadowbolt ONEBUTTON, Most (NOT ALL) top builds use 1 2 buttons at most
(don't tell me a cd is a button in your rotation you plebians <3)

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5 hours ago, ChaoticDjin said:

 

You guys do know that hybrid/seal/retri are currently the ONLY viable melee specs? One person in particular is absolutely dominating dps wise in PVP. Please don't buff them any more.

Other than that, please make ferocity 2/4/6 And maybe some changes for bears who prefer to wear 2h instead of a shield they can't use for blocking anyway.. (maybe something with the arms warrior talent 2-handed mastery)

Rest of the updates look promising

Why would you not be TG as bear? o.O

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Any news on if we can get an Alliance version of Warchiefs Blessing in this patch...

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1 hour ago, jungla said:

Think we all know that 1 button is what the Ascension team likes, Arcane missiles ONE BUTTON, Frostbolt, ONEBUTTON, Shadowbolt ONEBUTTON, Most (NOT ALL) top builds use 1 2 buttons at most
(don't tell me a cd is a button in your rotation you plebians <3)

Easy fix - UNLOCK ALL CORE ABILITIES that are still locked behind higher levels namely: Lifebloom, Savage Roar, Lacerate, Arcane Blast, Ice Lance, Shield of the Rigtheous, Mind Sear, Envenom, Fan of Knives, Lava Burst, Incinerate, Seed of Corruption. a lot of this spells would need additional ranks since a Lava Burst with 1500 Base Damage at Rank 1 is obviously a bad idea but all of this abilitys are required to make full use of Talents or even getting an arcetype in a position it becomes viable without the needs of heavy abilitie changing REs like Mutilate and Shadow.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Wigoor said:

So.. 

To do a full rotation of pws in 10man you need (1.132*9 + 1.5), 11.688s for GCD's and a flawless connection 0ms.

PWS will be up for 15sec, This gives you 3.312s of "free" time befor you need to start the rotation again. If you want to pre shield an ability you no longer have the power to do so, unless the tank doesn't take any damage.

While we at it, the RE [Strengthened Soul] reduces the Debuff of PWS by 1s stacking. If you use this you will have 0.312s of free time, add latency and you now have an RE that wont have its full potential at 3x.

You have made PWS a 1 button spec.

I completely agree with that and some previous replys about Body and Soul re change.
 

On the other hand i'm curious, like someone else mentioned, if the new sword specialisation RE will stack with reworked talent, so together the ICD would be 0

Edited by wowfen

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12 hours ago, Jinjab said:

Want to change energy for cat? Give us the talent Ferocity 5 pointer: Reduces the cost by 1x5. Make this a 3 pointer 2x3 and it will be worth taking. I'm all for the vitality change too, but it will still be a tad bit underwhelming 

Something we discussed, but the Relentless Strikes change will end up being more impactful.

10 hours ago, Pytho8 said:

What is concidered doing well? I know it's doing OK in some fights, but where adds have to die quickly it's falling behind hard. AAnd just because Naxx will be out, it doesn't mean that Aqt won't ever be played. If you want a good environment to do a test on dot builds, do c'thun. It's multitarget and adds need to die quickly.

There are a multitude of variants, but the one I played was a warlock/shadow priest combination with a planned rotation. I know spriest has a decent build, can do a little more damage, but it quickly turns into a single cast build with mindflay or vampiric touch at the helm. So I think it's boring.

What I like is a playstyle that needs your full attention to play, because of you mess up you fall behind in damage by a lot.

All very good points! I believe that with the nerfs we did previously to raid content with some healing changes we did, combined with players continuing to get more gear, has made encounters quicker than before. Which doesn't favor DoT builds as you eluded to. In naxx there will be longer and more drawn out fights and more fights that have a constant flow of adds to multi-dot during encounters. I think DoT builds will be able to perform better in this environment.

9 hours ago, SirGank said:

Will overkill ever get any changes to it, it's acutally worse then vitality now and it only lasts 20 seconds and seeing as we can't fd stealth anymore to refresh it's completely worthless.

It actually triggers during Shadow Dance, so it's a very valuable pickup for Backstab builds.

9 hours ago, Toxec said:

Around 80%+ of all casters will already die cuz of "Gag Order" Talent / Silent in general

We're removing Shield Block from this talent. Also, I should maybe note that we have a patch coming out not too far out after naxx which we will be focusing changes more towards PvP. For now with this update we're looking to address some issue in raids and shift the meta ever so slightly there.

8 hours ago, SirGank said:

tbh hunters really didn't need a buff, as top end did pretty well if players knew how to build correct but hay I guess now we'll see 7k dps hunters again

The changes should allow Hunter to have more options in PvE more than it will be a large damage increase. The changes above are more to mitigate the loss of damage coming from the AQ 40 set nerf, but it likely will result in some minor damage increases overall.

7 hours ago, Vedartha said:

1. Will this apply to each Explosive Shot tick ?

2. Does the RE remains unchanged ?

RE is currently unchanged and the effect only triggers once per Explosive Shot cast.

6 hours ago, Dekrex said:

Just a dumb question not associated with the pve changes but have you ever considered making re that changes type of damage or healing

Totally! Unfortunately it's not as easy as it sounds.

4 hours ago, Kreyvon_911 said:

Time farm other AQT .... People just get 2x DArk Edg axe  and we get AXE spec nerf TY!!

 

Your axes will still be very strong weapons. No need to worry about having to farm new ones.

4 hours ago, Sky said:

Any news on if we can get an Alliance version of Warchiefs Blessing in this patch...

I just asked about this and it should be ready for implementation before naxx.

 

To reiterate, I understand some of you are upset about not having more PvP changes with this update. This update is aimed more towards raids and naxx progression. We will have a followup update in where we will be focused primarily on PvP changes. That said, keep your PvP suggestions coming and we'll be sure to use that feedback while we're getting changes ready for the next patch. Also, I've gone through and shared feedback you guys have given me today with the team and we'll be going over. Thanks to everyone so far for your contributions.

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