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itswicky

Dev Update #78 Naxx sets

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I get the reasoning behind the Dreadnaught changes, that you want all tanks to have some upgrades in Naxx, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with having BIS being from a prior tier.

SnB tanks have had MC gear in their BIS forever, and had to deal with having largely 0 upgrades in AQ.  I don't see an issue with having 2H tanks using 5p Conq / 4p Dreadnaught, while it may not be exciting, there are many BIS pieces that never get replaced throughout vanilla (DFT/Prestors/Nelth Tear/ZG Necks/DMC/etc.).

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2 hours ago, mecar said:

Shaman 6 set now reduces all non-physical damage.

Wait, what changed here ??

It was previously Fire, Frost, Nature.

 

Also, I talked more with the team and we'll be keeping the T3 warrior shoulders itemized as they are currently, with block value. We currently still plan on changing the waist and legs.

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On 7/18/2019 at 2:42 PM, atm0220 said:

srry for repost just wondering how 60 ap is 2 - 4% damage increase 

it's more of a 1% dps increase for top end build and 2-4 for lower end builds.

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16 minutes ago, SirGank said:

it's more of a 1% dps increase for top end build and 2-4 for lower end builds.

Well, maybe it's not that bad, considering it gives a boost to low tier builds and a small improvement for high tier builds... The only thing that bothers me will it affect competition between caster builds and melee builds.

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15 minutes ago, Mograine said:

Well, maybe it's not that bad, considering it gives a boost to low tier builds and a small improvement for high tier builds... The only thing that bothers me will it affect competition between caster builds and melee builds.

imo as long as fights are just patchwork buggy messes, casters and melees should more or less compete on even fields, there will be fights that melee excels at and fights casters/ranged excel at.

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@itswicky are we going to see re-itemization on any other items in Naxx? Some of them are pure shite on Ascension (Looking at you, Warmth of Forgiveness)

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10 minutes ago, Sky said:

@itswicky are we going to see re-itemization on any other items in Naxx? Some of them are pure shite on Ascension (Looking at you, Warmth of Forgiveness)

Additionally, here's a full list of a lot (might not be all) off-set items that imo suck from naxx.

Patchwerk:
Cloak of Suffering (BWL/AQ cloaks are better)

Grobbulus:
The End of Dreams (C'thun mace is better)
Midnight Haze (C'thun mace is better)
Glacial Mantle (This will suck if FrostRes is useless, if it's not then you can safely ignore this item on this list)
Icy Scale Shoulders (This will suck if FrostRes is useless, if it's not then you can safely ignore this item on this list)

Gluth:
Digested Hand of Power (mp5 : ) )

Thaddius:
Spire of Twilight (Nice SP, but the Mp5 and lack of crit is going to turn off almost every healer, especially with better staff options at other points in the raid)

Anub'Rekhan:
Gem of Nerubis (PvP item, basically)
Band of Unanswered Prayers (Low SP when compared to other rings from previous tiers)
Touch of Frost (This will suck if FrostRes is useless, if it's not then you can safely ignore this item on this list)

Grand Widow Faerlina:
Polar Shoulder Pads (This will suck if FrostRes is useless, if it's not then you can safely ignore this item on this list)
Icebane Pauldrons (This will suck if FrostRes is useless, if it's not then you can safely ignore this item on this list)
The Widow's Embrace (C'thun mace is better)
Malice Stone Pendant (PvP item, basically)

Maexxna:
Pendant of Forgotten Names (mp5 only neck, omegalul)

Instructor Razuvious:
Veil of Eclipse (PvP item, basically)
Wand of the Whispering Dead (pretty bad SP for a wand)
Idol of Longevity (*insert clown emoji here*)

Gothik the Harvester:
Glacial Headdress (This will suck if FrostRes is useless, if it's not then you can safely ignore this item on this list)
Polar Helmet (This will suck if FrostRes is useless, if it's not then you can safely ignore this item on this list)

The Four Horsemen:
Maul of the Redeemed Crusader (bad stats all round)
Warmth of Forgiveness (mp5 and a proc that gives less mana than lifetap, on a 3min cd, epic trinket)

Noth the PLaguebringer:
Totem of Flowing Water (yikes, 10 mana)
Libram of Light (...)
Noth's Frigid Heart (previous HIOH are better from previous tiers)

Heigan the Unclean:
Icy Scale Coif (This will suck if FrostRes is useless, if it's not then you can safely ignore this item on this list)
Icebane Helmet (This will suck if FrostRes is useless, if it's not then you can safely ignore this item on this list)
Necklace of Necropsy (this is like on par with Choker of the FIre Lord... a MC item)

Loatheb:
Ring of Spiritual Fervor (MP5 only ring, yikes)

Sapphiron:
Sapphiron's Right Eye (bad stats for an off-hand)
Resilience of the Scourge Enchant -> Can we change the MP5 to haste or something, :) 

Kel'Thuzad:
Shield of Condemnation (it's a pvp shield for healers, but the stats still suck sorta)

 

 

Bear in mind that I'm not hugely knowledgeable about melee stats or tank stats, so items with those stats should be reviewed separately 
 

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On 7/18/2019 at 10:09 PM, Peel2g said:

You might wanna have a look at available fistweapons then. 

Ye the one of Saphiron is OH only and got 1.5 speed, no melee will use it.

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Vedartha said:

Ye the one of Saphiron is OH only and got 1.5 speed, no melee will use it.

I dunno, it's not bad.  It's not perfect but it's not a bad OH.  SMF won't use it because of the fast speed, but cats and rogue builds don't really care about OH weapon speed.  It's a great stat stick, basically trades the expertise of Death's Sting for Hit/Crit.

 

In other cases, I really wouldn't go overboard buffing every Naxx piece that seems underwhelming.  Naxx gear has a HUGE amount of overlap with other raids unfortunately.  

It's ILVL range is 81-92.  (2 ilvls LOWER than Nef, and only 4 ilvls higher than Cthun) and the only bosses that drop loot with a higher ilvl than C'thun are Saph and KT. 

There are some items that are just poorly itemized (especially in the cases where Mp5 is just useless on Ascension) but in some cases the items are good, just the same ilvl as BWL loot and are unfortunately on par with BWL loot.

 

Edited by Skray

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Sapphiron OH is basically a better pugio (ignoring speed/damage) which means its desirable for Casters and possibly Ranged Hunters. I haven't checked how it differs from other options in Naxx, but this item being weaker for meele does leave that open for grabs for Casters. This is an example of an item that seems bad at first glance but may be desired by a completely different spec that isn't on your mind. 

I'd like to see a change to the Sapphiron Caster trinkets [Eye of The Dead] and [The Restrained Essence of Sapphiron]. The Eye of the Dead was originally a Healer trinket before the Wrath client and here the only real difference is whether you want a higher amount of SP for 5 spells or a lower amount for 20sec.

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2 hours ago, Vedartha said:

Ye the one of Saphiron is OH only and got 1.5 speed, no melee will use it.

 

That may be true but that fist weapon DOES seem to be bis for casters, unless im missing something.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Sky said:

<lots of items that supposedly need reworking>

 

This is based on the standpoint that most if not all of the things you find in Naxxramas are supposed to be considered in every scenario better than what was previously attainable when that is not the design philosophy of the original itemization.

Most of them are itemized to be considered sidegrades or alternatives, similar to how Blade of Vaulted Secrets rivals Azuresong Mageblade. There used to be 40 players in a raid - not all of them had DFT, not all of them had Lok'amirs, scepters and femurs. There's always going to be something somebody wants in a 25m most likely.

I do agree previously highlighted items such as Warmth of Forgiveness or Totem of Flowing Water are absolute jokes to current Ascension standard, though.

6 hours ago, Vedartha said:

Ye the one of Saphiron is OH only and got 1.5 speed, no melee will use it.

It's just a strict combat rogue archetype off-hand if anything. Saying no melee will use it is an overstatement.

Edited by Gubbyascension

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I think a rework/straight up buffing of the worst items would be sufficient (think how some of the AQ trinkets had additional stats or altered bonus effects to be more appealing). Overall some of the reworked AQ trinkets were a relatively good success, and it would be great to see the same treatment done to the truly useless items in Naxx.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Gubbyascension said:

This is based on the standpoint that most if not all of the things you find in Naxxramas are supposed to be considered in every scenario better than what was previously attainable when that is not the design philosophy of the original itemization.

Most of them are itemized to be considered sidegrades or alternatives, similar to how Blade of Vaulted Secrets rivals Azuresong Mageblade. There used to be 40 players in a raid - not all of them had DFT, not all of them had Lok'amirs, scepters and femurs. There's always going to be something somebody wants in a 25m most likely.

I do agree previously highlighted items such as Warmth of Forgiveness or Totem of Flowing Water are absolute jokes to current Ascension standard, though.

Agreed.  I think really the only items that need to be changed are the Librams/Idols/Totems, as they are all complete ass as usual, and Warmth of Forgiveness.

Possible something along the lines of:

  • Idol of Longevity:  SP on Druid Healing over Time spells for HoT Healers
  • Totem of Flowing Water: Crit on shaman abilities for Chain Heal/Healing Wave
  • Libram of Light: Crit for Paladin Healing spells, reamains a niche Holy Light spec item

As long as the numbers were strong enough to justify their use for these healing specs.

My thoughts on trinkets:

  • Warmth of Forgiveness: Needs an overhaul.  change Mp5 to SP and buff the mana regen active.  (Falls into same SP healing niche as Rejuvenating Gem and Fetish of the Sandreaver)
  • Loatheb's Reflection: The resistance actually isn't terrible, I'd say this needs just a bit more.  If it had some stamina I would use it in bear.
  • Eye of Diminution: Also not bad, could argue this doesn't need to be changed, but could lower the CD on threat reduction and it could be a bit more viable as an alternative to Fade or FD.
Edited by Skray

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11 hours ago, Sky said:

@itswicky are we going to see re-itemization on any other items in Naxx? Some of them are pure shite on Ascension (Looking at you, Warmth of Forgiveness)

We are looking at these items and considering this.

To expand on that comment, I don't believe, as others in this thread, that every item needs to be strong/viable/upgrade so we won't do any meticulous retuning of items. We'll take a look at a handful of the bottom of the barrel items in naxx and see if we want to make any changes.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Gubbyascension said:

It's just a strict combat rogue archetype off-hand if anything. Saying no melee will use it is an overstatement.

True, tho it has limited uses, I think if they where to add expertise to it, it would open up a lot.

Edited by SirGank

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I've updated the OP to include changes we have planned to a few of the misc. raid pieces in naxx.

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(6) You take 3% less Non-Physical damage.

Still the worst 6set from all.
Its not worth in any way to go for the 6set.
It would only be interesting for tanks but which tank would go for shaman 6set xD
Also thats not "Utility" aswell :D

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@itswicky

Curious that you all are nerfing Block tank items before they even get played around with? Even after stating they're on the bottom. Whats the reasoning behind that?

Feels like I'm getting my sails cut before I even get any wind. As Skray said earlier 2h has plenty of items that are recent in terms of tier (2.5, bwl stuffs, etc.) Am I really going to have to LOSE block value and rating by switching out of tier 1 and 2 pieces?

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4 hours ago, Ennara said:

Curious that you all are nerfing Block tank items before they even get played around with? Even after stating they're on the bottom. Whats the reasoning behind that?

Feels like I'm getting my sails cut before I even get any wind. As Skray said earlier 2h has plenty of items that are recent in terms of tier (2.5, bwl stuffs, etc.) Am I really going to have to LOSE block value and rating by switching out of tier 1 and 2 pieces?

I assume you're referring to the trinket. That and the Misplaced Servo Arm were huge outliers on the top of the spectrum. The trinket far more so than the weapon even. It's pretty insane considering the power of BV on Ascension right now, and some quick math makes that pretty clear. It will still definitely remain a BiS option that's only available for shield tanks, just like the BWL trinket.

As far as the set goes, you'll definitely be wanted to go for the T3 set still, and you'll end up with quite a bit more total BV after gearing up in naxx as a whole. The very minor amount of BV you'll be losing from the 2 set bonus will be made up many times over by the amount of other stats like stam and def rating you'll be picking up. You'll be giving up around 30 BV total from the set pieces only, but picking up something like 1k effective health, over 4% total avoidance, ~800 armor, tons of hit and expertise, and the set bonuses. You'll make up that 30 BV with only 1 of the 3 available block items in naxx. You should definitely notice yourself getting stronger as you progress through naxx, and you'll even have more bosses which are properly designed better for block tanks. Fights where bosses will attack faster, and fights with multiple adds that need to be tanked. I believe shield tanks will be very strong in naxx.

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Question, why has there been no changes to hit and expertise on most of the sets.
And from what ive understood now casters wont even be close to hit cap in Naxx gear?

Meanwhile the shaman set was changed into some abomination of super stats for hybrids?

And yes, for non crit healers there is still nothing that really outperforms [Valiant Shortsword] or maybe ive missed something. Either way should we expect an offhand that is an actual upgrade for them?

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21 minutes ago, Cajden said:

And from what ive understood now casters wont even be close to hit cap in Naxx gear?

You won't have any problem getting hit cap. I've gone over that earlier in this thread.

29 minutes ago, Cajden said:

And yes, for non crit healers there is still nothing that really outperforms [Valiant Shortsword] or maybe ive missed something. Either way should we expect an offhand that is an actual upgrade for them? 

I haven't done the math in a while, and unfortunately don't have the time to right now, but I recall using an Off-Hand being better than using Firestones, but I don't believe I've checked with Earthliving Weapon. When I have the time I can check it out.

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36 minutes ago, itswicky said:
1 hour ago, Cajden said:

And yes, for non crit healers there is still nothing that really outperforms [Valiant Shortsword] or maybe ive missed something. Either way should we expect an offhand that is an actual upgrade for them? 

I haven't done the math in a while, and unfortunately don't have the time to right now, but I recall using an Off-Hand being better than using Firestones, but I don't believe I've checked with Earthliving Weapon. When I have the time I can check it out.

Well, you would need an offhand that have 116sp for it to be an upgrade.

Valiant Shortsword = 16sp

Weapon enchant = 30sp

Earthliving = 35sp + 100% from talents

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