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Dev Update #78 Naxx sets

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Posted (edited)
On 7/15/2019 at 9:09 AM, itswicky said:

(4) Increases your spell critical strike rating by 35.
REITEMIZATION
Gloves- +14 crit rating.
Legs- +14 crit rating.
Ring- +14 crit rating.

So this is an additional 8% crit on the Paladin set, which already had 5% crit, to give it 13% crit.

If I was to compare this to random SP/crit items, I'd be looking at the following:

Head: 2% (Frostfire/Mish'undare)
Shoulders: 1% (Rime Covered Mantle)
Chest: 2% (Stormcallers) 
Wrist: 1% (Soul Harvester's Bindings)
Hands: 1% (Gloves of Ebru)
Belt: 1% (Eyestalk Waistcord)
Legs: 2% (Leggings of Polarity / General(Marshal)'s Mail leggings)
Feet: 1% (Plagueheart/Frostfire Sandles)
Ring: 1% (Frostfire/Ring of Eternal Flame/Ritssyn's)

On the Paladin T3 set, the replacement items for the 2% crit (Head/Chest/Legs) all already have crit on them. 

So, if I change from the crit-offset to Paladin 8set, I'll gain a whopping total of 2% crit, now lets look at the rest of the set bonus.

On 7/15/2019 at 9:09 AM, itswicky said:

(2) While above 90% health you heal an additional 3% and while below 20% health you gain 3% cast speed.
(6) You heal yourself for 3% of healing done on others.
(8) Your direct healing spells have a chance to consecrate the ground at your target's feet for 4 seconds in an 8 yard radius, healing all allies standing within each 1 sec.

The 2set is okay, but it's really nothing special, especially considering it's a Naxx set.
The priest and druid 2sets have no restrictions on their respective procs, where as this 2set does. I think a suggestion further up said to make it when above 50% and below 50%. That would make this set bonus much more competitive when compared to priest and druid.

As for the 6set, in general they seem to be utility. This bonus is quite nice for self healing. Nothing else really to say about that.

Now let's evaluate the 8set and talk about the obvious flaw with it. Movement. Lots of the fights in Naxxramas require the healer to move, and lots more require members of the raid to move. This set bonus will require raid members to STAND IN PLACE (within the radius of the consecration heal) in order for your bonus to be applied.
This 8set is absolutely appauling when compared to the druid 8set (huge stats if you stand in the beam of light to increase your healing, only requires you to stand in place) or the priest set, which is a less powerful buff but it allows you to move.

 

Overall, the Paladin set is very very average, if I use off-set items I gain lots of SP but lose a tiny bit of crit, not to mention the extremely poor set bonuses that the Paladin boasts. This set is going to go relatively unused in its current state, and I would suggest significant buffs are needed to those bonuses. @itswicky

Edited by Sky

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I'm sorry to say but you made the new sets generic and boring. These sets are such that when Naxx comes out, if every player changes nothing and plays the exact same build as before, and farms the respective set for their role, they would be okay - the sets are just arbitrary damage/healing/tanking number increases. That's playing way too safe for a game that's becoming stale. What I would've liked to see is the complete opposite - very specialized set bonuses instead of very generic ones, and such that they push weak and underused builds into the meta.

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7 hours ago, MonkaS said:

I'm sorry to say but you made the new sets generic and boring. These sets are such that when Naxx comes out, if every player changes nothing and plays the exact same build as before, and farms the respective set for their role, they would be okay - the sets are just arbitrary damage/healing/tanking number increases. That's playing way too safe for a game that's becoming stale. What I would've liked to see is the complete opposite - very specialized set bonuses instead of very generic ones, and such that they push weak and underused builds into the meta.

I think you're totally wrong on this tbh. The way most of the set bonuses are now, they're gonna be used in several different builds instead of just boosting 1 specific one, which is great. Ascension is all about build making and making set bonuses benefit only 1 or 2 spells totally ruins that, and pushes people into certain things, instead of giving them the freedom to play whatever they want. New RE's have the purpose of pushing underused and weak builds into the meta - the sets should be for everyone, not just Arcane Missile mages or Thunderclap warriors like what we've seen before.

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38 minutes ago, Beastly said:

I think you're totally wrong on this tbh. The way most of the set bonuses are now, they're gonna be used in several different builds instead of just boosting 1 specific one, which is great. Ascension is all about build making and making set bonuses benefit only 1 or 2 spells totally ruins that, and pushes people into certain things, instead of giving them the freedom to play whatever they want. New RE's have the purpose of pushing underused and weak builds into the meta - the sets should be for everyone, not just Arcane Missile mages or Thunderclap warriors like what we've seen before.

I agree 100% 

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12 hours ago, Sky said:

So this is an additional 8% crit on the Paladin set

*5.5%

12 hours ago, Sky said:

Now let's evaluate the 8set and talk about the obvious flaw with it.

The description doesn't do the effect enough justice I don't believe. It has no target cap, so it has very high potential. Also, the duration is very short and the healing is done rapidly, so you're likely to still get use out of this effect even with movement happening. It's a bonus which has a high potential, but as you guys have pointed out comes with lost potential as well. I believe the bonus will be impactful enough to warrant using, but I'll be sure reevaluate it if it makes it to live in a weak state we'll be sure to make adjustments.

7 hours ago, MonkaS said:

What I would've liked to see is the complete opposite - very specialized set bonuses instead of very generic ones, and such that they push weak and underused builds into the meta.

Thanks for the feedback. When we released the info for our AQ 40 sets last year we experienced a bit of the opposite problem. Ascension is a game which offers a massive variety of playstyles, but the sets didn't cater to them all and people were left feeling out. This time around we decided to go with something more general as we wanted every build to have something to look forward to in T3.

 

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11 minutes ago, itswicky said:

Thanks for the feedback. When we released the info for our AQ 40 sets last year we experienced a bit of the opposite problem. Ascension is a game which offers a massive variety of playstyles, but the sets didn't cater to them all and people were left feeling out. This time around we decided to go with something more general as we wanted every build to have something to look forward to in T3.

I think the best example is AQT Rogue and Warlock set. Rogue is very generic, every melee build can get use out of it, some more some less. But the Warlock set is almost fixated to one spell - Shadowburn - making the set irrelevant campaired to the Mage set, whish 2 Piece is ones again more generic allowing a majority of builds to play it.

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4 hours ago, itswicky said:

*5.5%

16 hours ago, Sky said:

Apologies, I read 35 crit bonus as 5%.

The fact that it's 2.5% means the paladin set is even worse, you call it the crit set but you can get MORE crit using off-set items.

I strongly believe it is the weakest of the healer sets rn & clearly I'm not the only one

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, itswicky said:

*5.5%

The description doesn't do the effect enough justice I don't believe. It has no target cap, so it has very high potential. Also, the duration is very short and the healing is done rapidly, so you're likely to still get use out of this effect even with movement happening. It's a bonus which has a high potential, but as you guys have pointed out comes with lost potential as well. I believe the bonus will be impactful enough to warrant using, but I'll be sure reevaluate it if it makes it to live in a weak state we'll be sure to make adjustments.

Thanks for the feedback. When we released the info for our AQ 40 sets last year we experienced a bit of the opposite problem. Ascension is a game which offers a massive variety of playstyles, but the sets didn't cater to them all and people were left feeling out. This time around we decided to go with something more general as we wanted every build to have something to look forward to in T3.

 

Can I get a reply on my comment? or at least a reason why rogue 6 set bonus is a very useless utility that isn't used in either pvp or pve.

will this set bonus be changed or will we just have a 6 set bonus that's a waste of space. as a utility it's brings very little to the table requiring the player to out of combat for 20 seconds to get 20% of their hp back, I can't imagine any fight in any raid that would be good in, and in pvp a simple healing ability will heal just as much or more in 1/20th of the time.

personally I'd love to see the 6 set give energy back  similar to the old 4 set bonus of 5 energy per rogue ability, maybe a make it into a foccuse attack talent but only give 2-3 energy per crit. other sets got at least something that their class uses while rogue is made in a generic melee set which is a disappointment  for any rogue player.

 

or at the very least make it useable in raids.

Edited by SirGank

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11 minutes ago, SirGank said:

personally I'd love to see the 6 set give energy back  similar to the old 4 set bonus of 5 energy per rogue ability, maybe a make it into a foccuse attack talent but only give 2-3 energy per crit. other sets got at least something that their class uses while rogue is made in a generic melee set which is a disappointment  for any rogue player.

I mentioned in the OP that the 6 sets were meant as utility bonuses and not something that provides additional power. I believe I commented on your reply, perhaps I'm mistaken, that the idea of one of the Rogue set bonuses being themed around energy regen is thematic, but that the sets were meant to be more general bonuses that all melee can make use of. While energy regen and management is a crucial part of some melee builds, it's a negligible part of others.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, SirGank said:

Can I get a reply on my comment? or at least a reason why rogue 6 set bonus is a very useless utility that isn't used in either pvp or pve.

will this set bonus be changed or will we just have a 6 set bonus that's a waste of space. as a utility it's brings very little to the table requiring the player to out of combat for 20 seconds to get 20% of their hp back, I can't imagine any fight in any raid that would be good in, and in pvp a simple healing ability will heal just as much or more in 1/20th of the time.

personally I'd love to see the 6 set give energy back  similar to the old 4 set bonus of 5 energy per rogue ability, maybe a make it into a foccuse attack talent but only give 2-3 energy per crit. other sets got at least something that their class uses while rogue is made in a generic melee set which is a disappointment  for any rogue player.

 

or at the very least make it useable in raids.

Huge problem with this idea is that if their 6set gave them a steady amount of energy gain, that would make it the ONLY 6set bonus that is a dps increase. why should you be the only archetype that gets a dps increase? the stated purpose of these bonuses is to just be utility. All of the 6sets for dps classes are, in general, worthless. INTENTIONALLY worthless.

Edited by boi

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Just now, itswicky said:

I mentioned in the OP that the 6 sets were meant as utility bonuses and not something that provides additional power. I believe I commented on your reply, perhaps I'm mistaken, that the idea of one of the Rogue set bonuses being themed around energy regen is thematic, but that the sets were meant to be more general bonuses that all melee can make use of. While energy regen and management is a crucial part of some melee builds, it's a negligible part of others.

Could we at least have the 6 set bonus be useable in raids? I'd like you opinion at what point that 6 set bonus would be usefull seeing as you need 20 seconds to to make full use of it. should a melee dps stay out of a fight for 20 seconds just to heal 20%?

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Just now, boi said:

Huge problem with this idea is that if their 6set gave them a steady amount of energy gain, that would make it the ONLY 6set bonus that is a dps increase. why should you be the only archetype that gets a dps increase? the stated purpose of these bonuses is to just be utility. All of the 6sets for dps classes are, in general, worthless. INTENTIONALLY worthless.

Mage 6 set can be considered damage increase as it reduces the amount of life taps needed or any other manage generation.

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1 minute ago, SirGank said:

Mage 6 set can be considered damage increase as it reduces the amount of life taps needed or any other manage generation.

I mean, i guess thats technically true, but for me that 6set would give about 1/3rd the mana of a life tap. 1 life tap global every 3 minutes is so negligible I'd honestly rather have some of the other ones just for more surviveability.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Beastly said:

I think you're totally wrong on this tbh. The way most of the set bonuses are now, they're gonna be used in several different builds instead of just boosting 1 specific one, which is great. Ascension is all about build making and making set bonuses benefit only 1 or 2 spells totally ruins that, and pushes people into certain things, instead of giving them the freedom to play whatever they want. New RE's have the purpose of pushing underused and weak builds into the meta - the sets should be for everyone, not just Arcane Missile mages or Thunderclap warriors like what we've seen before.

Sure, but then even if you accept that the sets should be generic, there are 2 problems. First is that these new REs have been nowhere to be seen, so the strong will stay strong and the weak will stay weak. The second is that sets can be generic without being as boring. You get benefit from the Rogue, Paladin or Mage set by the courtesy of existing. But the Warlock 8 set says "hey, you need to be using a DoT alongside your direct damage spam spell to get the full benefit". The sets should at least force the player to think about a change in playstyle and rotation within their existing build to better use the set bonus. And apart from Warlock, the strongest sets of this bunch do not.

Edited by MonkaS

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12 hours ago, MonkaS said:

Sure, but then even if you accept that the sets should be generic, there are 2 problems. First is that these new REs have been nowhere to be seen, so the strong will stay strong and the weak will stay weak. The second is that sets can be generic without being as boring. You get benefit from the Rogue, Paladin or Mage set by the courtesy of existing. But the Warlock 8 set says "hey, you need to be using a DoT alongside your direct damage spam spell to get the full benefit". The sets should at least force the player to think about a change in playstyle and rotation within their existing build to better use the set bonus. And apart from Warlock, the strongest sets of this bunch do not.

I agree that the amount of new REs coming out is pretty much 0 atm, but that is something the devs could change rather quickly, and not really a good reason for why the sets should only benefit like 1 build.

I dno about the warlock set being the only one doing that, I dont think things are that grey and white. People will perhaps consider new builds now that they can actually benefit from most of the sets instead of having to use off-set pieces again. 

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Posted (edited)

Druid 

4 set bonus. Change to spirit OR agi whatever is higher to increase haste so that ferals benefited from it.

6 set bonus - Id rather see you change it to 1% per 3 seconds. 

8 set bonus - Change spell haste bonus for overal haste so it was useful for ferals too. Also dont force staying in place with this beam. Being stationary sucks in PvP. Change it to proc effect which stays on you.

 

I hope you make stats on druid set good not only for casters, but for ferals too. So that ferals werent locked into rogue set.

Edited by mindw0rk

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18 minutes ago, mindw0rk said:

Druid 

4 set bonus. Change to spirit OR agi whatever is higher to increase haste so that ferals benefited from it.

6 set bonus - Id rather see you change it to 1% per 3 seconds. 

8 set bonus - Change spell haste bonus for overal haste so it was useful for ferals too. Also dont force staying in place with this beam. Being stationary sucks in PvP. Change it to proc effect which stays on you.

 

I hope you make stats on druid set good not only for casters, but for ferals too. So that ferals werent locked into rogue set.

I'd love this, but also H Y B R I D C A T I N C O M M I N G

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, mindw0rk said:

Change to spirit OR agi whatever is higher to increase haste so that ferals benefited from it.

 

2 hours ago, mindw0rk said:

Change spell haste bonus for overal haste so it was useful for ferals too. Also dont force staying in place with this beam. Being stationary sucks in PvP. Change it to proc effect which stays on you.

The Druid set currently does not have any stats that are desirable for Ferals and we have no plans on changes the itemization of the Druid set at this time to include melee stats as well.

Edit: Sorry, forgot to add that the 8 set bonus will not require you to stand in place to benefit from its effect.

Edited by itswicky

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Update for you guys. We've got some minor changes to some of the sets that I'll list here and that have already been updated on the OP.

Druid 6 set now heals 1% every 3 sec.

Paladin 2 set is now active while above 75% health and while below 25% health.
Paladin 4 set now grants 42 crit rating.
Paladin T3 chest now gives 14 additional crit rating instead of 13 mp5.
Shaman pieces have had their haste rating values adjusted to be more accurate to melee haste numbers instead of caster haste numbers. The changes are as follows:
Shaman T3 helm now grants 11 haste rating.
Shaman T3 wrists now grant 8 haste rating.
Shaman T3 legs now grant 16 haste rating.

Thanks for the feedback so far you guys and keep it coming!

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, itswicky said:

Edit: Sorry, forgot to add that the 8 set bonus will not require you to stand in place to benefit from its effect.

You still have to stand within the beam though, right? You're just able to move around inside the beam I assume, and if that is the case what is the radius of the beam :) 

edit: also nice job with the additional changes to the Paladin Set, it's starting to become useful now 😛 

Edited by Sky

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2 hours ago, itswicky said:

Update for you guys. We've got some minor changes to some of the sets that I'll list here and that have already been updated on the OP.

Druid 6 set now heals 1% every 3 sec.

Paladin 2 set is now active while above 75% health and while below 25% health.
Paladin 4 set now grants 42 crit rating.
Paladin T3 chest now gives 14 additional crit rating instead of 13 mp5.
Shaman pieces have had their haste rating values adjusted to be more accurate to melee haste numbers instead of caster haste numbers. The changes are as follows:
Shaman T3 helm now grants 11 haste rating.
Shaman T3 wrists now grant 8 haste rating.
Shaman T3 legs now grant 16 haste rating.

Thanks for the feedback so far you guys and keep it coming!

Is feedback on the hunter sets taken into consideration?

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Sorry guys, I think I might have missed some of your replies on the 3rd page of this thread. To make sure I got you all here's some feedback from me.
 

On 7/15/2019 at 4:56 AM, Random Theory said:

- Druid & Priest = I believe the bonus conversions should be switched as Druid healers, respectively HoTs based healers DO NOT scale with HASTE, but do very well with CRITICAL RATING due to Regrowth and Chain Heal. Keeping this in mind, due to the haste cut few months back, HASTE is really good for a Holy Healer which has mostly castable strong heals. 

As someone else mentioned on the thread, haste is still definitely a valuable stat for for HoT healers because of the GCD limits.

On 7/15/2019 at 4:56 AM, Random Theory said:

- The Paladin set bonus is just, as many have mentioned before me, ridiculously weak. The main point would be the threshhold between 89% and 21% in which you do not gain any bonus. That gap is the most common to be in a raid fight. You could begin by cutting these % to Above/Below 50%. This way it balances out. Next, you could increse/change these bonuses. The 3% Healing is fine, but the 3% Haste is NOT enough. We are talking about a CASTING Healer that is pressured due to low HP. 3% cast on a 2.5 Healing Spell does not change anything.

I recently made changes to the set to make it a bit less situational. We'll still consider increasing the haste benefit while at low health, but the idea is that you will have one of the bonuses active most of the time. When comparing that to the other 2 sets, this bonus, while seemingly unimpactful, is pretty relevant. For comparison, you only need one of the effects from this 2 set to be active 66% of the time, to be competitive with the Druid 2 set for healing, if not slightly stronger. So long as you're getting topped off quickly and spending a fight constantly at the mid health point then you should be getting good value. We'll see how naxx progression looks and if additional changes need to be made to the bonus we'll definitely do so.

On 7/15/2019 at 4:56 AM, Random Theory said:

- Rogue 6 set bonus is similar to the Hunter one, with one huge twist. Nobody picks Stealth anymore, especially in PvE!

On 7/15/2019 at 4:56 AM, Random Theory said:

- The Shaman 6 set bonus

Definitely hear the community's feedback on these two. We don't have much time before a release, but we'll see what we can do for these two bonuses to feel slightly more relevant to naxx progression.

On 7/15/2019 at 4:56 AM, Random Theory said:

- The Warrior's 8 set bonus is amazing and as a Tank I really love that you kept the idea of the original bonus, but tweaked the values for a serious last stand effect. The only issues I find with it is what has been mentioned before. The CD should be put to a 2 minutes at most. Similar player effects like Ardent Defender or Cheat Death have 2/1m CDs. As it is a set bonus, 2m should suffice indeed!

I didn't quote the whole comment for this, but I think if you're a tank using this bonus then you know to account for it when you drop to low health numbers and save your CDs for when this bonus isn't available. As far as a cooldown reduction for the effect goes, I'll talk to the team about it.

On 7/15/2019 at 6:19 AM, Soulraven said:

If I remember correctly a few pieces had mp5 on them. As Itswicky agreed in a comment above, it's kind of a bad stat on Ascension. Will this be changed, or does it have some value for hunter speccs I just don't get?

As far as stat weights go, Blizz essentially gave this to Hunter for free. We don't plan on replacing it with anything at this time.

On 7/15/2019 at 7:40 AM, TheFV said:

(2) (4) : Why are we trying to put power back into pets when we JUST strayed away from a pet reliant meta?

We believe we have a good hold on pets in the meta at the moment and that we have the proper tools and ideas to make additional adjustments if it's necessary.

On 7/15/2019 at 7:51 AM, Beastly said:

- Rogue 4 set: would be nice to have this give ALL crit rating, not just melee, for above mentioned reasons.

First, thanks for the feedback and the detailed post! I think you make an excellent point in regards to this bonus in particular. I'll definitely look at getting it changed.

On 7/15/2019 at 7:51 AM, Beastly said:

- Rogue 8 set: would be nice to have this proc on spells AND abilities, not just abilities, for above mentioned reasons.

I think you make a good case for this one as well. We'll definitely talk this over.

On 7/15/2019 at 7:51 AM, Beastly said:

- Shaman 8 set: would be nice if this worked on ranged abilities too - to see a hybrid hunter playstyle, going int>RAP

The main issue with this is the Shaman set currently is itemized for Strength only and we don't have any plans at this time to rework the itemization to Agi or a hyrbrid between the two.

On 7/15/2019 at 7:51 AM, Beastly said:

- Hunter 2 set: this is another set bonus pushing people into playing a specific playstyle

I would argue that the set bonuses don't necessarily push you into a specific playstyle. They do require you to have a pet, but not to have a pet focused build to get good value. Although, I do understand that it's not quite a flexible as the Rogue 2 and 4 set.

On 7/15/2019 at 8:55 AM, tumnus0028 said:

The old 6 set bonus is what ranged hunters needed badly in their current state because they would no longer have to worry about mana sustain at all in raids,

I honestly haven't gottem much feedback on Hunter sustain until this post. Definitely hear you guys on that issue loud and clear. We'll see if we can squeeze anything for some upcoming changes so you guys won't even need to rely on a set bonus.

On 7/15/2019 at 8:55 AM, tumnus0028 said:

My last criticism would be to say that you have re-itemised the other sets in terms of converting Mp5 to a more useful stat but haven't done this for hunter.

The hunter set is itemized pretty well already. I mentioned this to another reply earlier, but the mp5 on this set, and the spirit and spell power on the previous hunter sets were more or less just free stats given on the set. We kept it because it adds a little bit of flavor and it doesn't seem right to remove it.

On 7/15/2019 at 8:55 AM, tumnus0028 said:

I will also continue the push for #HybridHunters until it happens, bring back sp co-efficients on explosive shot and add it to black arrow / serpent sting !!

The balance team really likes this idea too!

On 7/15/2019 at 12:00 PM, SirGank said:

Really dissapointed that the energy gain was removed, Why does backstab/mutliate not get any kind of love we've only seen nerfs the past two years. ya sure there's a the 8 set bonus but everything else is just Generic melee. I get that there isn't any other melee gear set but not adding any kind of energy generation for backstab or mutlate really shows how little love you guys have given backstab/mutilate players.

I'd argue that the Rogue set slightly favors Rogue builds. Don't get me wrong, it's meant to be a catch all melee build, but Rogue builds probably have the highest % of their damage coming from melee abilities which the 8 set is centered around. They also have faster GCD on their abilities and general use faster weapons, so they have more opportunities to have a higher uptime on the 2 set bonus. These 2 things might be marginal in their own right, but it was definitely never our intention to design a set around a single build or archetype.

On 7/15/2019 at 2:10 PM, Dekrex said:

what will be base scalling + from what it will scale and how well it will scale/ how often will it proc or what is the proc chance of it ?

Sorry for not providing specific numbers at this time, but the set is intended to give an average of 2% gain in either healing or dps.

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51 minutes ago, Sky said:

You still have to stand within the beam though, right? You're just able to move around inside the beam I assume, and if that is the case what is the radius of the beam

No, it will summon a beam of light as a visual effect, but the aura will be passively applied to you so that you are free to move as needed.

44 minutes ago, TheFV said:

Is feedback on the hunter sets taken into consideration?

It seems that somehow I missed a lot of discussion that was had in the third page of this thread. It was brought to my attention and I've addressed it in my reply above.

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Thank you for taking the time to read through it again. Excited to see the Balance team is willing to entertain the idea of Hybrid hunters in the future.

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3 minutes ago, itswicky said:

No, it will summon a beam of light as a visual effect, but the aura will be passively applied to you so that you are free to move as needed.

48 minutes ago, TheFV said:

So Druid 8set is absolutely busted and there's no reason to pick anything else then.

Priest 8set grants you 100 spell haste IF a target is below a certain HP.

Druid 8set grants you 100 haste AND 10% healing on all heals???

Where is the balance there :/

 

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