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Dev Update #78 Naxx sets

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, wutm8 said:

Oh boi here we go again, either you dont understand the value of hit rating, or you are not aware that more hit rating on the gear you have = to less talent points needed into hit % you need to invest. And since bloodvine alone gives you 4 % hit from three pieces, and if you have tailoring you get  2 % crit aswell (only idiots doesnt pick tailoring as a caster). The set also gives you a shitton of spellpower.

 

Like I said, if you are ready for naxx you will not be using bloodvine anymore. there is more than enough hit rating on gear from bwl/aq to get hit capped.

The amount of shit you miss out on by using bloodvine (namely AQ SET BONUSES, but also the fact that the "shitton of spellpower" is actually lower than bwl gear gives) means you probably won't get very far in naxx unless your raid is hard carrying you. 

Edited by boi

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Posted (edited)

C'thun  = 4 % hit in from items

Twins  = 2 % hit from items

Vici/huru = 1 % hit from a item

Broodlord = 1 % hit from a item

Nef = 2 % hit from a item

Drakes 1% hit from a item

You are aware what the hit cap is right?

Edited by wutm8

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1 minute ago, wutm8 said:

C'thun  = 4 % hit in from items

Twins  = 2 % hit from items

Vici/huru = 1 % hit from a item

Broodlord = 1 % hit from a item

Nef = 2 % hit from a item

Drakes 1% hit from a item

You are aware what the hit cap is right?

Pugio. Zg enchants. 2% hit RE. Improved faerie fire which if your raid team isnt garbage somebody is using. thats actually over hit cap, which is 17% for casters.

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Posted (edited)

You actually dont need to use the entire set of bloodvine just the major hit benefits items ie chest and legs. And then you can combine it with a 3 set piece for the set bonus.

Edited by wutm8

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, wutm8 said:

You actually dont need to use the entire set of bloodvine just the major hit benefits items ie chest and legs. And then you can combine it with a 3 set piece for the seg bonus.

Yeah or you could just get GOOD gear. Hell, a lot of people even use a hit bow and the 5 hit to boots enchant and then you dont even need the 2% hit RE. 

Edited by boi

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Relying on someone putting up debuff such as faerie fire for additional hit, and then in combination nerfing said player with a 3 talent point  is a bigger raid dps/heal loss than having your casters optimized by gear alone., unless it is in a 25 man group.

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Not even using the 2 % hit re, and i'm hit capped through gear alone. Still doing 4k  dps.

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1 minute ago, wutm8 said:

Relying on someone putting up debuff such as faerie fire for additional hit, and then in combination nerfing said player with a 3 talent point  is a bigger raid dps/heal loss than having your casters optimized by gear alone., unless it is in a 25 man group.

Uh-huh. Have fun in bwl progression, man. We're all rooting for ya.

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8 hours ago, itswicky said:

Druid
(4) You gain 6% of your Spirit as spell haste rating.

Paladin

NEW- (2) While above 90% health you heal an additional 3% and while below 20% health you gain 3% cast speed.

Priest
(4) You gain 8% of your Spirit as spell crit rating.
 

ROGUE
(6) While stealthed you heal 2% of your maximum health every 2 sec and your Stealth lasts an additional 10 sec.
 

Shaman
(6) You take 3% less Non-Physical damage.

Warrior

(8) When your health drops below 30% you trigger Cheat Death. Cheat Death absorbs the next 3000 damage you would take and gives you a 100% chance to dodge the next attack within 5 sec. This effect cannot occur more than once every 3 min.

Quote

 

I feel like the bonuses mentioned above are either misplaced or really good, but need some tweaks!

- Druid & Priest = I believe the bonus conversions should be switched as Druid healers, respectively HoTs based healers DO NOT scale with HASTE, but do very well with CRITICAL RATING due to Regrowth and Chain Heal. Keeping this in mind, due to the haste cut few months back, HASTE is really good for a Holy Healer which has mostly castable strong heals.

- The Paladin set bonus is just, as many have mentioned before me, ridiculously weak. The main point would be the threshhold between 89% and 21% in which you do not gain any bonus. That gap is the most common to be in a raid fight. You could begin by cutting these % to Above/Below 50%. This way it balances out. Next, you could increse/change these bonuses. The 3% Healing is fine, but the 3% Haste is NOT enough. We are talking about a CASTING Healer that is pressured due to low HP. 3% cast on a 2.5 Healing Spell does not change anything.

- Rogue 6 set bonus is similar to the Hunter one, with one huge twist. Nobody picks Stealth anymore, especially in PvE! I know these sets are supposed to cover utilities outside PvE environment, but in PvP Stealth is not used either. I support the previous ideas of an Energy Regeneration, perhaps "Reduce Energy Costs of all your abilities by 2?" or "Every ability critical strike regenerates 2 Energy". If you do not like the Energy Regeneration approach, we could still go for stuff like "Kick restores 5% HP" or "Recuperate & Meditate's effects are increased by 50%".
Either way, the STEALTH related bonus HAS to go away!

- The Shaman 6 set bonus has been discussed before and I can't say I have better ideas that most people, but what I believe is that it should definitely be related to totems. Some ideas might be like "Grounding Totem can now absorb 2 spells" "Cleansing Totem & Tremor Totem pulse every 2s" "Stoneclaw Totem applies its shield to the owner as well"
 

- The Warrior's 8 set bonus is amazing and as a Tank I really love that you kept the idea of the original bonus, but tweaked the values for a serious last stand effect. The only issues I find with it is what has been mentioned before. The CD should be put to a 2 minutes at most. Similar player effects like Ardent Defender or Cheat Death have 2/1m CDs. As it is a set bonus, 2m should suffice indeed!
Now the other issue is that it triggers at 30%. At low HP situations, CDs will be popped and a different approach will be taken by the Tank. What I wouldn't like is to pop Shield Wall/Mocking Blow and have this Cheat Death effect proc. Why? Because not only I would have wasted my "Last Stand" effect, but I would have made Shield Wall/Mocking Blow much less effective. It's like combining Mocking Blow and Evasion. A NO-NO!. The proc should be at 10/15/20% at most to make it feel like a serious CD.

 

Thank you for reading and I hope this comment was of some help!

PS: All these changes/ideas/suggestions were based on my experiences and perspective, some might be far fetched and I understand if people have better suggestions ;)

 

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3 minutes ago, boi said:

Uh-huh. Have fun in bwl progression, man. We're all rooting for ya.

Clearing AQT every reset, but since the colour of the item text makes the item magicaly better cappa.

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Posted (edited)

To be fair wutm8, we have 4 10 man teams still and a 25 man, no one uses bloodvine. If you say the sky is green and 10 other say is blue who is right than ?

 

i even had to google  the set never saw it before lol.

 

But! i bet there is spellpenetration on the mage set again, whish has no benefit in raid, may can morph it to hit.

Edited by Vedartha

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I have a question about the hunter set.

If I remember correctly a few pieces had mp5 on them. As Itswicky agreed in a comment above, it's kind of a bad stat on Ascension. Will this be changed, or does it have some value for hunter speccs I just don't get?

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1 hour ago, Random Theory said:

I feel like the bonuses mentioned above are either misplaced or really good, but need some tweaks!

- Druid & Priest = I believe the bonus conversions should be switched as Druid healers, respectively HoTs based healers DO NOT scale with HASTE, but do very well with CRITICAL RATING due to Regrowth and Chain Heal. Keeping this in mind, due to the haste cut few months back, HASTE is really good for a Holy Healer which has mostly castable strong heals.

- The Paladin set bonus is just, as many have mentioned before me, ridiculously weak. The main point would be the threshhold between 89% and 21% in which you do not gain any bonus. That gap is the most common to be in a raid fight. You could begin by cutting these % to Above/Below 50%. This way it balances out. Next, you could increse/change these bonuses. The 3% Healing is fine, but the 3% Haste is NOT enough. We are talking about a CASTING Healer that is pressured due to low HP. 3% cast on a 2.5 Healing Spell does not change anything.

Haste is an amazing stat for HoTs based healers in raid as it allows them to apply more HoTs to more raid members.

I do agree however that the paladin 2p feels very lackluster.

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, mecar said:

Haste is an amazing stat for HoTs based healers in raid as it allows them to apply more HoTs to more raid members.

HoTs do not scale with haste and a lot of haste is needed in order to reduce the GCD, which won't be gained in that manner...  Any other stat would benefit a hot healer much more!

PS: A HoT healer can spread his HoTs easily by Critical Regrowth

Edited by Random Theory

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Soulraven said:

I have a question about the hunter set.

If I remember correctly a few pieces had mp5 on them. As Itswicky agreed in a comment above, it's kind of a bad stat on Ascension. Will this be changed, or does it have some value for hunter speccs I just don't get?

No its useless. AQ Set got Spirit too and even Spellpower xd. But to be fair, the Hunter sets have extremly good stats allready, no need for aditional stats tho. Spirit just looks weird on it, but i can live with it.

Edited by Vedartha

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, itswicky said:

Hunter

OLD- (2) Increases the duration of your Rapid Fire by 4 secs.
(4) Increases Attack Power by 50 for both you and your pet.
(6) Your ranged critical hits cause an Adrenaline Rush, granting you 50 mana.
(8) Reduces the mana cost of your Multi-Shot and Aimed Shot by 20.

NEW- (2) Your ranged and melee abilities have a chance to increase your tamed pet's attack speed and focus regeneration by 25% for 8 sec. This effect cannot occur more than once every 10 sec.
 (4) Increases melee and ranged Attack Power by 60 for both you and your pet.
 (6) Feign Death heals you for 10% of your maximum health and an additional 1% every 2 sec while you remain feigning.
 (8) Increases the duration of your Black Arrow by 15 sec.

(2) (4) : Why are we trying to put power back into pets when we JUST strayed away from a pet reliant meta? Even if this doesn't change anything drastic about pets, we're currently in an environment where pets are basically walking stat and buff sticks. I use my wolf to snapshot Serpent sting not much else, the pets are quite frankly boring as is. I would like to see something that gives the Hunter higher personal haste to counteract the fact we will eventually lose the 4% wild quiver from AQT set.

(6) : I liked the old set bonus, it's even quite powerful considering how much Crit the Naxx items have  (Arcane shot & Steady shot is at 68mana cost for reference). I would like to see it returned but nerfed to 50% chance to proc for ranged attacks and even lower for Meele since Meele hunters are always hovering above 90%+ crit on key abilities. The new one has its uses but its heavily favoured for PvP rather than PvE. 

(8) This one is good but lazy. Readiness already achieved this once every 3min, now black arrow is just a passive 8% dmg increase all the time, another Hunger for Blood to keep up.

 

 

Edited by TheFV

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Posted (edited)

I'm really sad to see none of these sets give anything of value to melee builds that aren't focused on purely physical damage, except for maybe the shaman one. I for example play a poison build, and like 50% of my damage is nature damage. The rogue set seems most optimal for me, but both the 4 set and the 8 set bonuses only benefit melee abilities. Why not to make them benefit from other things aswell? It's not like casters will start using 8 rogue set bonuses, due to the stats being awful for them.

What was fun about sets from previous raids were that sets like druid, paladin and shaman had bonuses and stats that could benefit melees, as well as casters (or stuff inbetween) which gave wiggle room for different kinds of off meta playstyles. This time there's like 2 sets that can be used as a melee, which is shaman and rogue (shaman being clearcut hybrid set, only benefitting that 1 type of meta playstyle - leaving pretty much only rogue set for AP melee builds). It seems to me that casters are getting so many sets this time, with melees not rly having much to choose from at all. 

I mainly play a poison melee spec on my main, and for me these sets just seem bad. There's barely any set bonuses I get something good out of. The few ones that seem good for me, are trash for me stat wise.

- Druid 8 set: would be cool with on hit effects, but the stats are just purely for casters, making this not an option. Not even shapeshifting builds can use this for anything.

- Rogue 4 set: would be nice to have this give ALL crit rating, not just melee, for above mentioned reasons.

- Rogue 6 set seems kind of boring? Barely any builds use stealth, and even for the ones that does, this just feels wrong for them.

- Rogue 8 set: would be nice to have this proc on spells AND abilities, not just abilities, for above mentioned reasons.

- Shaman 8 set: would be nice if this worked on ranged abilities too - to see a hybrid hunter playstyle, going int>RAP

- Hunter 2 set: this is another set bonus pushing people into playing a specific playstyle, instead of giving people the tools to create whatever they want with their build. Would love to see this changed. We have REs to give super specific boosts to certain spells, abilities or builds. Sets should be more general, while still being interesting imo. This goes for the mage 8 set aswell.

- Would be nice if shaman set gave a mix of agility and strength, instead of just strength (same reason as 8 set bonus)

- In general I would be happy to see bonuses that are interesting for off meta builds aswell, and having new content/updates reward people theorycrafting new builds, instead of pushing people into playing the already played meta cookie cutter stuff we see on the daily.


Just my 2 cents. Other than this, you did a good job. I'm looking forward to Naxx and future updates :)

 



 

Edited by Beastly

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, itswicky said:

Hunter

OLD- (2) Increases the duration of your Rapid Fire by 4 secs.
(4) Increases Attack Power by 50 for both you and your pet.
(6) Your ranged critical hits cause an Adrenaline Rush, granting you 50 mana.
(8) Reduces the mana cost of your Multi-Shot and Aimed Shot by 20.

NEW- (2) Your ranged and melee abilities have a chance to increase your tamed pet's attack speed and focus regeneration by 25% for 8 sec. This effect cannot occur more than once every 10 sec.
(4) Increases melee and ranged Attack Power by 60 for both you and your pet.
(6) Feign Death heals you for 10% of your maximum health and an additional 1% every 2 sec while you remain feigning.
(8) Increases the duration of your Black Arrow by 15 sec.

I know balancing is a bitch with item sets and i respect the effort you guys put in so thanks for these sets.

The old 6 set bonus is what ranged hunters needed badly in their current state because they would no longer have to worry about mana sustain at all in raids, as they are now they are one of the most mana hungry specs next to healers half the time and even with the change to spells not effecting ranged autos, shit still feels clunky to press mid rotation.

One way to resolve such a thing would potentially to double down on the 2 set bonus to make it more appealing over Expunge on AQT sets and for example include the hunter in the attack speed increase but reduce the increase to like 10% + flat mana regen (x mana per second for the duration of buff). Ranged Hunters are in an alright spot but get clearly outperformed on a lot of bosses because of their downtime with mana / reliance on positioning and not being able to pew pew more autos in to bosses : ( .

Although we never expected crazy bonuses i dislike the 8 set bonus the most although its a free damage increase for 2 ae 1 te you could have added something more flavourful like the other sets and say put a RAP version of the Firebrand Trap RE on the 8 set bonus (Your ranged and melee auto attacks get imbued with an element when you do x (place a trap or do something hunter related) for x amount of seconds has an x second cd). 

My last criticism would be to say that you have re-itemised the other sets in terms of converting Mp5 to a more useful stat but haven't done this for hunter. Yes we're mana starved but Mp5 does nothing to help sustain and there are 6 pieces with Mp5 which would be better served being converted in to haste rating / crit rating instead. That being said the hunter set in terms of pure stats is indeed insane compared to other sets and while it makes sense keeping the Mp5 to make it less broken stat wise I still feel like the stat could be better utilised than Mp5.

I will also continue the push for #HybridHunters until it happens, bring back sp co-efficients on explosive shot and add it to black arrow / serpent sting !!

Edit: Will we be seeing any changes to the trinkets/items in Naxx just like AQT to bring them more in line with ascension values etc ?

Edited by tumnus0028

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Plate bear used to be a thing, but since the buffs to bear talents which buffed its leather armor % gain, I just don't see a reason to go plate gear anymore.

TG bears also go for the Feral Resilience REs to make up for the loss of a shield further diminishing the value of plate on a bear.

It would be great to have a relevant set bonus, but it would require further bear talent and RE changes to make plate gear equivalent to the armor they get from leather.  

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Posted (edited)

Rogue

OLD- (2) Your normal melee swings have a chance to Invigorate you, healing you for 90 to 111.
(4) Your Backstab, Sinister Strike, and Hemorrhage critical hits cause you to regain 5 energy.
(6) Reduces the threat from your Backstab, Sinister Strike, Hemorrhage, and Eviscerate abilities.
(8) Your Eviscerate has a chance per combo point to reveal a flaw in your opponent's armor, granting a 100% critical hit chance for your next Backstab, Sinister Strike, or Hemorrhage.

NEW- (2) Dealing melee damage to targets below 20% health increases your melee haste by 150 for 4 sec. You cannot benefit from this effect more than once every 4 sec.
(4) If you have more Strength than Agility you gain 28 melee and ranged crit rating. If you have more Agility than Strength you gain 60 attack power.
(6) While stealthed you heal 2% of your maximum health every 2 sec and your Stealth lasts an additional 10 sec.
(8) Your direct damage melee abilities have a 50% chance to deal an additional 15% damage.

Really dissapointed that the energy gain was removed, Why does backstab/mutliate not get any kind of love we've only seen nerfs the past two years. ya sure there's a the 8 set bonus but everything else is just Generic melee. I get that there isn't any other melee gear set but not adding any kind of energy generation for backstab or mutlate really shows how little love you guys have given backstab/mutilate players. I mean you guys removed over 3 talents that affected damage of both abilitys and just as many re's.

also 6 set bonus is complete useless in any pve situation ya you can use vanish but the healing requires you to be afk for it to be full effect that's a complete waste in any pve fight pvp too as it's just better to get a heal then waste 20 seconds for 20% hp

6 set bonus should be some kind of energy generation, anything that's not another "Increase energy engeration by 5%" or some weak set bonus. This is nax gear you guys should want to make the player feel impowered instead the 6 set bonus is just feels like a wasted opportunity that won't be used in any situation in pve and rarely if ever in pvp. there are better options for general utility.

Give backstab/mutilate players some love for once. Why is it that the rogue set have no set bonuses that affect rouge ability only (and I don't count the stealth set bonus seeing as it's complete useless)

Edited by SirGank

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16 hours ago, itswicky said:

Rogue

OLD- (2) Your normal melee swings have a chance to Invigorate you, healing you for 90 to 111.
(4) Your Backstab, Sinister Strike, and Hemorrhage critical hits cause you to regain 5 energy.
(6) Reduces the threat from your Backstab, Sinister Strike, Hemorrhage, and Eviscerate abilities.
(8) Your Eviscerate has a chance per combo point to reveal a flaw in your opponent's armor, granting a 100% critical hit chance for your next Backstab, Sinister Strike, or Hemorrhage.

NEW- (2) Dealing melee damage to targets below 20% health increases your melee haste by 150 for 4 sec. You cannot benefit from this effect more than once every 4 sec.
(4) If you have more Strength than Agility you gain 28 melee and ranged crit rating. If you have more Agility than Strength you gain 60 attack power.
(6) While stealthed you heal 2% of your maximum health every 2 sec and your Stealth lasts an additional 10 sec.
(8) Your direct damage melee abilities have a 50% chance to deal an additional 15% damage.

 

To give you a little bit of info on the sets above, they are meant to work loosely as follows: (2) ~2% increased ability to dps, heal, or tank, (4) general bonuses which should result in 2-4% ability to dps, heal, or tank and meant to be easily paired with other 4 set bonuses, (6) general utility, (8) thematic bonus which should result in ~5-6% increased ability to dps, heal, or tank (roughly). These may not be pin point perfect in all cases, but generally speaking it should be the case. I know some people might be disappointed with the 6 set bonus for some of the sets, but it wasn't prudent for us to have 4 bonuses which increased your output as a dps, tank or healer. Doing so resulted in either the rest of the bonuses feeling more lackluster, or in a set offering too much power.

 

how will rouge 4 be a 2 - 4% dps increase when its just 60 ap in naxx and right now there ist a melee play str 
also 6 why a stealth 6 set when caster get a burst of mana why not add in a burst of energy rage ext for melee as well because melee atm is already one of the weakest specs atm

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, itswicky said:

NEW- (2) Your damage and healing spells have a chance to plant a seed in the target, which will heal friendly targets or damage enemy targets after 3 seconds.

what will be base scalling + from what it will scale and how well it will scale/ how often will it proc or what is the proc chance of it ?

Edited by Dekrex

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12 hours ago, Hysteria said:

I would like to know why Holy Pally in general is being depraved of haste?

I'll assume you're playing a 'Holy Paladin' type build with mostly cast time spells. This doesn't mean you have to use the Paladin T3 set. If you value haste more than crit then, as you pointed out, there are strong haste sets available to you. The Paladin set is unique in that it is itemized more towards crit. I don't believe it would be better for the sets to be more homogenized to all provide the same stats.

10 hours ago, Mograine said:

Can't say I am completely pleased, but I am also not disappointed. The time will tell with balance overhaul before Naxxramas, can we please have an approximate date when to expect it?

We'd like to get balance changes in a week before release if we can, but I'd like to reiterate that this update won't be an 'overhaul.' More so minor adjustments to shift PvE meta slightly.

10 hours ago, wutm8 said:

There is no reasons not to do this, since you are changing the stat values anyways. If you are not changing the hit values, The set  pieces is going to be devalued compared even to nerfed aqt loot.

A lot of people seem concerned with hit rating on the caster sets, so let me go over it real quick with you guys. With the Warlock T3 set I'm sitting at 16.875% hit raid buffed/debuffed of 17%. I currently do not have a Neck, Weapon, Off-Hand, or Ranged Weapon equipped. I currently do not have any REs on and I am only using 2/2 Enlightened Judgements, but haven't picked up Balance of Power. My off pieces are Dark Storm Gauntlets, Ring of the Fallen God, Kiss of the Spider, and Neltharion's Tear. Additional pieces of gear I have available to me in Naxx are Wand of Fates, Atiesh, Brimstone Staff, Wraith Blade, Sapphiron's Left Eye, or the Royal Scepter of Vek'lor from AQ. I can achieve hit cap with the Warlock T3 full set of 9 pieces with 2/2 Enlightened Judgements, 2/2 Balance of Power, and 1/1 Balance of Power RE. I understand this isn't more desirable than picking off-pieces with hit, but just to make a point that high value hit options do exist which make it easy to reach hit cap numbers.

@lewtorz Thanks for the feedback. We hope the Shaman set is itemized well enough for Ret Hybrids to be interested in it as well, and not just the maelstrom casters. I'm at least confident that you'll want to use the 4 set along side the AQ 40 5 set.

10 hours ago, lewtorz said:

Does this increase spell power or just damage from spells?

Non-physical damage dealt.

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12 hours ago, Random Theory said:

respectively HoTs based healers DO NOT scale with HASTE

This is a common misconception - all healers benefit from haste in the form of increased actions per minute, i.e reducing global cooldown on spells.

Granted, you do not scale beyond above mentioned, but with spell mastery gone, reaching that amount of haste is an impressive feat, especially in a 25m setting.

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