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Dev Update #78 Naxx sets

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Posted (edited)

mhm its a naxx set, naxx got mainly frost nature and shadow damage oh atleast Faerlina got fire... so its a utility buff against 3/4 schools.

And no you cant use FD in every situation, i need FD to be up to drop threat.

Edited by Vedartha

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5 minutes ago, mecar said:

Something that would buff Grounding or Stoneclaw totem, ideally. 

Thanks for the suggestion.

5 minutes ago, mecar said:

I'm curious, what are the builds that are going to be nerfed ? Arcane missiles ?

We will likely be making adjustments to the 5 piece Enigma bonus.

5 minutes ago, mecar said:

Also I agree with Vedartha that the paladin set looks the weakest so far, it doesn't seem to provide anything really interesting.

I mentioned this further up, but the set is itemized a bit better for some of the more popular healer builds at the moment with the amount of crit available on the set. I think this will help greatly, and I think the bonuses won't be too overshadowed by the other sets.

3 minutes ago, Gubbyascension said:

Earthshatter looks awfully bloated in terms of reitemization though...

Thanks for sharing. Anything specific you would like to see change/different?

3 minutes ago, Gobrox said:

no bear set 🐻 :((

=(

 

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1 hour ago, itswicky said:

The vanilla 'hybrid' class sets were a bit understatted compared to the other sets, so what you see here seems a bit overstated. I'm definitely curious to hear what the rest of the community has to say regarding it. We've also lowered the Intellect and spell power on the set, which isn't as easy to see.

If I understand the changes correctly, we're swapping 100 intellect into 245 strength, and swapping 44 SP and 82 Mp5 into 28 Crit, 50 Hit, and 45 Haste.

If we compare to Bonescythe, we're looking at +16 stam, -154 agi, +131 str, +123 int, -210 ap, +177 sp, -112 crit, -20 hit, +45 haste.

Compared to Cryptstalker, we're looking at +12 stam, -191 agi, +245 str, +41 int, -374 ap, +177 sp, -70 crit, +10 hit, +45 haste. 

 

This isn't really a 1:1 comparison though, as different stats had different weightings.  SP was more valuable than AP, and the more of a stat that existed on a piece of gear the more budget it took. 

https://wow.gamepedia.com/index.php?title=Item_level&oldid=2334791
http://wow.allakhazam.com/wiki/Itemization_Formulas_(WoW)

 

It's definitely not what I would consider vanilla hybrid gear, but it's probably pretty close to decent stat budgeting.  The Str value is pretty high on it.  I'd expect to see the Str value split between Str/Agi for a bit more vanilla feel, possibly throw some AP in the mix too.  

 

Another consideration, is that on the Paladin/Druid/Priest pieces where extra stats are added without removing anything, they are without a doubt over their item level budget.  I think changing Mp5 to other stats is generally good though, Mp5 has very little use on Ascension, and was weighted quite highly by Blizzard's system.  So that does give a bit of flexibility in item budgeting.

In the other cases, I'd suggesting dropping primary stats (probably stamina, since it would make the healer set bonuses a bit less attractive in PVP).

 

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Posted (edited)

Will we be told equations behind some of the 8pcs like Paladin? So we can get a general idea of what it can tick for.

Edited by Sheeni

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3 minutes ago, Sheeni said:

Will we be told equation behind some of the 8pcs like Paladin? So we can get a general idea of what it can tick for.

I gave a very simplistic breakdown of what to expect from the bonuses on the OP. Likely around 5-6% increase from most.

@Skray Thanks a lot for the detailed reply. As you stated Mp5 is generally not a valuable stat on Ascension. At least not like it was in Vanilla. If you compare the modified sets to the Mage set for example, I think you'll find they look a lot more competitive in terms of stats than they did at blizzlike values. Even when doing a piece by piece comparison, you can see that some of the Mage and Lock items are still itemized better for most casters.

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Hey Wicky ... i have a question about the Warrior set... 

 

4 out of the 9 items are very heavy on Block Rating and Block value. Unfortunatly only 1 out of the 3 tank speccs utilize these stats which is also the least played from my experience ... have you thought about that ? Is there a chance you could change this to either be dodge rating (which is used by all 3 tank speccs) or my personal preference hit and expertise which also all 3 need and which there is barely anything to be found on that set ? 

 

Theres a total of 30 hit and a whopping 0 expertise currently on the entire set (if you leave out the 4setbonus)

 

Hoping to get a reply on that one my dude! Peace

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Posted (edited)

A few things really concern me about a few of these sets (specifically the mage and warlock sets, and one small thing about the hunter set i wont mention)

First of all,  any idea what the 2set for mage even hits for? Because if it isn't very much, the entire set is worthless since both the 2set and 8set are based around it. You shouldn't have to have the 8set for the 2set to even be worth using, so hopefully, that is not the case. Second of all, feel free not to answer, but do you know if the 2set for mage procs fingers of frost when the damage it procs is frost? 

My main concern overall, however, is the fact that many items for these sets are, honestly, terrible. Over half of the items for tier 3 warlock are just straight up downgrades from AQ gear (hell, the bracers are a downgrade from BWL gear), as well as several items from the mage set. This makes it just feel bad to get the gear. I honestly don't even see a reason to replace my enigma set based on the stats I know and the set bonuses you've just shown

 

 

Edited by boi

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Regarding the stats on the warlock set, not the setbonus, it's a huge loss of hit rating going for the 8 set if unchanged. Needs more hit rating! 

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48 minutes ago, Peel2g said:

4 out of the 9 items are very heavy on Block Rating and Block value. Unfortunatly only 1 out of the 3 tank speccs utilize these stats which is also the least played from my experience ... have you thought about that ? Is there a chance you could change this to either be dodge rating (which is used by all 3 tank speccs) or my personal preference hit and expertise which also all 3 need and which there is barely anything to be found on that set ? 

Hey, thanks for writing. You bring up a good point, which has been discussed within the team before. We're still considering swapping the block stats for other more general stat bonuses that 2H tanks, or even plate bears, can utilize as well. I'll definitely let you guys know here if we make any changes in that regard.

33 minutes ago, boi said:

First of all,  any idea what the 2set for mage even hits for? Because if it isn't very much, the entire set is worthless since both the 2set and 8set are based around it. You shouldn't have to have the 8set for the 2set to even be worth using, so hopefully, that is not the case. Second of all, feel free not to answer, but do you know if the 2set for mage procs fingers of frost when the damage it procs is frost? 

I mentioned in the OP and in a reply somewhere, but the idea is that each bonus will provide a fairly consistent damage increase for each bonus. You can check out the rough amounts in the OP, but no we didn't design the set so that you need the full 8 set to get meaningful value from the 2 set. I'm not certain on the FoF synergy.

35 minutes ago, boi said:

My main concern overall, however, is the fact that many items for these sets are, honestly, terrible. Over half of the items for tier 3 warlock are just straight up downgrades from AQ gear (hell, the bracers are a downgrade from BWL gear), as well as several items from the mage set. This makes it just feel bad to get the gear. I honestly don't even see a reason to replace my enigma set based on the stats I know and the set bonuses you've just shown

I compared the Mage set and the stats are comparable, but generally a direct upgrade in most cases with the small exception of hit being swapped for crit and vice versa. I checked the Lock set as well and every piece of gear seems to be a direct upgrade going from AQ 40->T3. So by a decent margin as well. It's good to keep in mind that the item level difference in some of the pieces very small because of how they were designed in Vanilla. The AQ40 chest I.E. is ilvl 88 while naxx chest is 82.

To the second part of your comment, regarding swapping from AQ 40 sets, I don't imagine every single build will want to swap to the naxx sets. As I stated in the OP we'll be making minor adjustments to some of the AQ 40 sets, so that certainly will help players deciding whether or not to switch, but some sets give strong improvements to specific builds. I.E. we expect most PW:S and Arcane Missile builds to still likely want to stick with their AQ sets, but if you're playing any other caster build with the Enigma set we're confident you'll want to swap to one of the naxx sets. Note you'll still be able to gain two 2 set bonuses or one 4 set bonus from T3 when using 5 piece naxx sets, so you'll still very likely be looking to get many gear upgrades in naxx.

18 minutes ago, Pytho8 said:

Regarding the stats on the warlock set, not the setbonus, it's a huge loss of hit rating going for the 8 set if unchanged. Needs more hit rating! 

Thanks for the reply. I checked this and it seems you'll be able to get 3% hit from 8 of the 9 pieces of the lock set compared to 2% which is available from the AQ 40 5 pieces. You should be able to substitute one of the pieces of the lock set for a off-piece with hit rating, like the Ring of the Fallen God or the Dark Storm Gauntlets, both from C'thun. You'll also get some strong hit off-pieces from naxx bosses like the Kiss of the Spider. If you think you'll have issues getting hit capped with the full lock 8 set and the rest of Vanilla off-pieces definitely write to let me know and we'll take a look at this.

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2 minutes ago, itswicky said:

 

I compared the Mage set and the stats are comparable, but generally a direct upgrade in most cases with the small exception of hit being swapped for crit and vice versa. I checked the Lock set as well and every piece of gear seems to be a direct upgrade going from AQ 40->T3. So by a decent margin as well. It's good to keep in mind that the item level difference in some of the pieces very small because of how they were designed in Vanilla. The AQ40 chest I.E. is ilvl 88 while naxx chest is 82.

 

If you look at the gear people actually use, you will see that gloves, wrist, belt, and ring are all straight downgrades statwise.

Wrist? 13 ilvl higher than arcane acc, you gain 2 sp and lose 8 hit. terrible.

Glove? you lose 11 spellpower, and trade 1% hit for crit. exact same ilvl. terrible. 

Belt? You lose 7 spellpower and trade 1% crit for hit. Same ilvl.

Ring? depends what one you use, but there are many with better stats.

The stamina and int increase isnt worh the fairly large dps los swapping to the t3 sets brings.

 

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7 minutes ago, itswicky said:

Hey, thanks for writing. You bring up a good point, which has been discussed within the team before. We're still considering swapping the block stats for other more general stat bonuses that 2H tanks, or even plate bears, can utilize as well. I'll definitely let you guys know here if we make any changes in that regard.

The reason block tanks are the most under-represented is for the lack of block value on current items.

I don't think removing it from the set is a great idea, as it would push them further into obscurity.

Shield tanks have the potential to be great - with enough BV you can easily crit block 2.5-3.5k hits.

And pretty sure plate bear isn't a thing? as they get no bonus armor from Bear Form.

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1 minute ago, Bastus said:

The reason block tanks are the most under-represented is for the lack of block value on current items.

I don't think removing it from the set is a great idea, as it would push them further into obscurity.

Shield tanks have the potential to be great - with enough BV you can easily crit block 2.5-3.5k hits.

And pretty sure plate bear isn't a thing? as they get no bonus armor from Bear Form.

Exactly. There was vitrually 0 gear for block tanks in AQ, making the spec stagnate and fall behind. Continuing that trend by needlessly removing the few block items they gain would be insanely unfortunate. The block tanks i know are so excited for naxx just because they finally get to replace gear they've had since molten core.

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3 minutes ago, Bastus said:

The reason block tanks are the most under-represented is for the lack of block value on current items.

I don't think removing it from the set is a great idea, as it would push them further into obscurity.

Shield tanks have the potential to be great - with enough BV you can easily crit block 2.5-3.5k hits.

And pretty sure plate bear isn't a thing? as they get no bonus armor from Bear Form.

And blocking for such amounts would lead into a pvp desaster ... even more so than it currently is... the problem of not having enough BV in pve could easily be solved with a talent ala iron will just with BV as the conversion stat but only if blocking finally gets some pvp adjustments... theres no reason to have 4/9 items from that set be worthless to the other 2 tanking styles giving it a rly bad sidetaste collecting the whole entire set while having dead stats on them 

 

But thats just my opinion 

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@Boi If you're equipping 3 of those 4, what you need for the 8 set, you lose 16 spell power and 1% hit in the examples you gave for wrist, glove, and belt. Gaining the 6 and 8 set bonus by swapping out these pieces and 1 talent or RE for the 1% hit, if you aren't getting that elsewhere like the trinket, will definitely be worth pursuing.

6 minutes ago, Bastus said:

I don't think removing it from the set is a great idea, as it would push them further into obscurity.

I mentioned in the OP that we'll be looking to bring tanks a little closer in line with each other. With that in mind I think it may be prudent to swap the block rating and block value, but we haven't come to a final decision in that regard.

7 minutes ago, Bastus said:

And pretty sure plate bear isn't a thing? as they get no bonus armor from Bear Form.

It's very viable and you can tank pretty much all content with the right setup, but it's definitely not as popular or quite as optimized as the standard leather variant.

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Shield tanks have only lost popularity due to the gear they need being either nonexistent or few and far between from AQR and AQT. Removing shield *anything* from Tier 3 will continue to push that disparity in popularity.

Don't change this gear to where it isn't valuable for shield tanks. If you want to fix the tank popularity and usability problem, the gear needs to be usable by all 3 archetypes to a good degree. This wasn't really looked at when 2.5 Conqueror set was made, and it would be silly to make this mistake again.

-the tank engine

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1 minute ago, Torguun said:

Don't change this gear to where it isn't valuable for shield tanks. If you want to fix the tank popularity and usability problem, the gear needs to be usable by all 3 archetypes to a good degree. This wasn't really looked at when 2.5 Conqueror set was made, and it would be silly to make this mistake again.

Any changes that may come to the set would be to ensure it's a viable option for all tank archetypes. Separate talent and ability changes would be done in tandem to make sure block tanks wouldn't simply fall behind once more. We weren't really comfortable with making the leap and taking responsibility for changing the itemization of the AQ 40 sets, only the bonuses. We're now taking that leap and understand the implications of it. One of them being, "Why modify one set and not the other." We'd like to make as few itemization changes as possible, but we're willing to make the changes which seem necessary. Thanks for the input.

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4 minutes ago, Torguun said:

Shield tanks have only lost popularity due to the gear they need being either nonexistent or few and far between from AQR and AQT. Removing shield *anything* from Tier 3 will continue to push that disparity in popularity.

Don't change this gear to where it isn't valuable for shield tanks. If you want to fix the tank popularity and usability problem, the gear needs to be usable by all 3 archetypes to a good degree. This wasn't really looked at when 2.5 Conqueror set was made, and it would be silly to make this mistake again.

-the tank engine

So youd find it equally fair for all 3 speccs to have shield tanks benefit from every stat on the set while the other 2 just have to live with the fact that 4/9 are just bad for them ? Wouldnt it be a better solution to implement an iron will-esque talent with BV as the conversion stat as above mentioned?

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20 minutes ago, itswicky said:

@Boi If you're equipping 3 of those 4, what you need for the 8 set, you lose 16 spell power and 1% hit in the examples you gave for wrist, glove, and belt. Gaining the 6 and 8 set bonus by swapping out these pieces and 1 talent or RE for the 1% hit, if you aren't getting that elsewhere like the trinket, will definitely be worth pursuing.

But what if i am only going for a 2set or a 4set? is your suggestion really that its perfectly reasonable to lose 16 spellpower, 1% hit, and a talent or RE slot just for a 2% increase? For most specs that is a straight up dps loss.

Also the idea that the mage 4set would be a 2-4% dps increase is laughable considering almost nobody runs int conversion, so nobody puts points into int. That 6% wouldnt convert anybody to do it either since it still wouldn't match the SP that strength gives. Even if it did match it 1:1, AP conversion would STILL be better simply becasue theres so many more raid buffs that gives AP/str/agi than int. It just doesnt work.

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Peel2g said:

So youd find it equally fair for all 3 speccs to have shield tanks benefit from every stat on the set while the other 2 just have to live with the fact that 4/9 are just bad for them ? Wouldnt it be a better solution to implement an iron will-esque talent with BV as the conversion stat as above mentioned?

This isn't wotlk where you get mostly every piece replaced as the tiers move up. There are plenty of 2h pieces that will continue to be viable. The first real 2h didn't even need the rework to be better then most shield tanks at the time. Meanwhile, shield tanks may finally be able to replaces zg gear and a large amount of t1 pieces.

Also you really wouldn't want to implement any kind of conversion for shield tanks like that. There are exists 40% block value increase through talents, and 60% crit block. If you up the scaling incorrectly you're going to run into a problem quick as the benefit of shield stuffs is no diminishing returns.

Is it clean for 2h? No, but this expansion doesn't inherently support it. If you change block value/rating on t3 to things all tanks can use, and then buff shield tank talents to offset, you're just making 2h irrelevant.

 

EDIT: if there was a way to convert irrelevant defensive stats into relevant ones, say block value to parry rating when you don't have a shield equipped (obviously not 1 to 1) I think that would be a fairly easy work around

Edited by Ennara
more thoughts.

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I would like to know why Holy Pally in general is being depraved of haste? This spec is the least fun to play in pvp since you can't cast a 2.5 sec spell. A person with one finger out of ten has enough time to interrupt, and fakecsting a 2.5 sec spell is unreal here, or I'm bad at it)) Every other spec has a way to deal with this - be it instant casts or passive/proc haste. 

Naxx sets:

1) Druid healing - passive 5%+2-3% from spirit conversion. 10% from proc. 

2) Priest healing - 2% passive + 10% from proc.

3) Shaman even - 3.5% passive, 4% from proc.

 

And Pally gets 3% while being below 20% HP. 

After being the victim of a critical strike casting time of your next holy spell is reduced by 3/5/7%. Stacks 3 times. Buff lasts 10 seconds.

Taking damage has a 25% chance of reducing casting time of your next holy spell by 3/5/7%. Stacks 3 times. Buff lasts 10 seconds.

When target of your Beacon of Light takes damage, casting time of your next holy spell is reduced by 3%. Stacks 3 times. Buff lasts 10 seconds.

 

I'd like something like this.

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Can't say I am completely pleased, but I am also not disappointed. The time will tell with balance overhaul before Naxxramas, can we please have an approximate date when to expect it?

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The caster dps sets really needs to get some hit love. And since you are litterally throwing hit after the hybrids, this should be applied on the caster set pieces aswell. Unless you want everyone to stil be using bloodvine in nax.

There is no reasons not to do this, since you are changing the stat values anyways. If you are not changing the hit values, The set  pieces is going to be devalued compared even to nerfed aqt loot.

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5 minutes ago, wutm8 said:

The caster dps sets really needs to get some hit love. And since you are litterally throwing hit after the hybrids, this should be applied on the caster set pieces aswell. Unless you want everyone to stil be using bloodvine in nax.

Literally nobody that is ready for naxx still uses bloodvine >.> what are you talking about 

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Oh boi here we go again, either you dont understand the value of hit rating, or you are not aware that more hit rating on the gear you have = to less talent points needed into hit % you need to invest. And since bloodvine alone gives you 4 % hit from three pieces, and if you have tailoring you get  2 % crit aswell (only idiots doesnt pick tailoring as a caster). The set also gives you a shitton of spellpower.

 

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I'll say from a Hybrid Ret stand point about the shaman set:
Itemization: 
Adding haste is a bit weird as there's not enough on the gear to keep it comparable to other stats such as crit. For melee haste rating point for point is quite a bit weaker then crit.  I would suggest if you want to keep haste on these pieces to increase the amount of STR to make up for the lack of secondary. That way these pieces won't be proportionately stronger for hybrids that normally don't convert str or AP to SP.


Set Bonus's:

2p: seems good, do want to know if all 3 procs are different effects that can proc independently. Each proc is nearly 2% dps increase outside of the haste which is only .75-1%.

4p: a decent effect will probably be a 2-3% dps increase

8p: Does this increase spell power or just damage from spells? either way it would only be about a 2-3% dps increase, seems weaker then other 8p bonus's.

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