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The Great Death Knight Debate

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Posted (edited)

So...Death Knights...on Ascension. A touchy subject for some and while playing Ascension I've heard what many other players think of the topic. Most players usually fall under one of three schools of thought.

  1. It will not and should not happen.
  2. It has to happen but will be a huge pain in the ass to implement for both players and devs.
  3. Give us Death Knights NOW!!!

For those who don't know, Death Knight abilities benefit from both attack power AND spell power. Some of the Death Knight abilities also use mechanics that none of the other class abilities do too. And talents? Death Knight talents have to potential to not only completely change up the ENTIRE meta but also kill the server if not balanced right. Because of all this implementing Death Knights is a difficult process even on normal servers. 

Some players think Ascension will or should never have Death Knight class options enabled and I get why. I used to play on another classless server before Ascension and they enabled Death Knight talents/abilities without balancing them and instead chose to make the game more difficult to accommodate the new OP meta. This however resulted in EVERYONE having to chose the same exact builds just to progress through the game. In the end this server died when everyone left for Ascension.

I think Ascension can succeed where this server failed however. I think Ascension can balance Death Knights. So naturally I fall under #2 and think that if Ascension releases WOTLK in the future Death Knight class options will have to come with it. It wouldn't make sense otherwise since the class is such a huge part of the expansion. The real question I think is when. When should the devs release Death Knights and start balancing them? Should they release all the class features at once when WOTLK comes out and work their asses off to balance 80 levels worth of new class features? Or should they release it now and balance it bit by bit as Ascension progresses to WOTLK? I think releasing Death Knights sooner than later would be better since the imbalance the new Talents and Abilities will create won't be as bad if Death Knight builds have 20 less talents to work with.

On the other hand there are plenty of players who desire the "authentic" experience. Why they expect that from a classless server like Ascension I don't know but I expect those players would rather vanilla feel like vanilla, BC like BC, and WOTLK like WOTLK. I get this way of thinking too, nostalgia and all, ya know? But Ascension is already special and in its own league. And since the server is already so heavily modified from what retail was back in the day I see no reason to limit the Dev's creativity and production for the sake of what same may consider conventional.

Anyways, what do you guys think? If you thought this post was even a little interesting please consider giving it a thumbs up. :)

 

Edited by Hexent

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41 minutes ago, Hexent said:

Death Knight abilities benefit from both attack power AND spell power.

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They only have an attack power scaling in 3.3.5a

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19 minutes ago, Gubbyascension said:

????????????????????????????????

They only have an attack power scaling in 3.3.5a

SP Death Knight was apparently a thing on some private servers (maybe early TrinityCore?) they could use holy paladin gear and get some really high damage on their spells.

But yeah, blizzlike is only AP scaling.

 

I'm hoping Death Knight abilities do become available, but they will need a LOT of balancing as things like Unholy Presence reducing everyone's GCD to 1s will be an auto-pickup.  I imagine these kinds of things will be class-masked to DK only abilities.

 

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2 hours ago, Skray said:

I imagine these kinds of things will be class-masked to DK only abilities.

 

Yeah hopefully they do class-mask unholy presence and a few other abilities. Not Blood or Frost Presence though. I have some really cool (but not OP) build ideas involving those two.

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All I'd want from DK's would be the ghoul, army of the dead and gargoyle. 
Some of the tanking stuff would be pretty cool to play around with as well.

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I've played DK for years on wotlk, from blizzlike to creative, haste servers, all that, and while i would love to see it implemented into ascension, i believe it'll either be a pain to balance, a botched version of the actual trees cause many of their talents/abilities are quite strong, or it'll be so heavily modified it'll take an entire page to count all the changes, from massive haste increase, to healing, to GCD reduction, it's just a mess, many things would need tuning and many others will either need to be disabled or looked at closer.
 

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6 hours ago, Hexent said:

I think releasing Death Knights sooner than later would be better since the imbalance the new Talents and Abilities will create won't be as bad if Death Knight builds have 20 less talents to work with.

 

This is an interesting idea, however, I'd suggest that a PTR specifically for testing out the talents so the devs could work on it after/during their planned updates, and so people can get a feel for it and see if it should ultimately make it into the game. This would give them plenty of time to work on it while also pushing out what they need to do to keep the server progressing like it's supposed to. Hopefully something will become of this idea though, as i love DK, my main DK on a private server has around 278 days played, i'd love to use their abilities on ascension in the future, whether it comes in a few months or a few years, i'd love to see it happen.

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1 hour ago, Fweya said:

All I'd want from DK's would be the ghoul, army of the dead and gargoyle. 
Some of the tanking stuff would be pretty cool to play around with as well.

Pretty much this.

I think it would be nice okay just to have one item for it (instead of new talents). And by that item I mean [Sigil of the Dark Rider] ( https://wotlk.evowow.com/?item=39208 ). The first Death Knight sigil. It can be added to some vendor and edited to 

Sigil of the Dark Rider
Binds when picked up
Unique
Relic                                          Sigil
Equip: If you have no pet, every 30 seconds summon a ghoul as your pet.
Use: Summons an entire legion of Ghouls to fight for you. (6 min CD)

And ghoul users would be limited in ranged attacks (they cannot equip ranged weapon).

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Posted (edited)

Spellpower Dk-s were a thing till patch 3.2 what happened beyond is unknown to me, they just stopped working, but it was like 3 spells death and decay and I believe death coil and corpse explosion? The scaling was way over 1x spellpower so it was more so a unsuspecting cheese tactic, you don't expect death and decay to hit you that hard the moment its placed, now imagine being rooted on spot whilst a warlock is using hellfire on you. Not exactly abusable anywhere outside (here at least) Stealthy ambushes or unsuspecting deathknight casters on bgs picking off squishy targets that would die anyways.

 

With the topic on hand though, Ima have to say that releasing the deathknight kit in any way, shape or form on ascension would have to be severely regulated with hefty nerfs. (And I mean literaly so nerfed that the spells are down into the ground and unpickable).

 

1. With the adition of a new resource (Runes and runic power) you have potentialy one of the most broken meele metas in existence, powerfull hitting abilities that scale of attack power and asides dealing extra effects cost little to no resource to maintain. Icy touch and plaguestrike being the main culprit of this. So refresh of runes would have to be regulated since you get 6 at your disposal to use for a variety of effects and spells. Now imagine a strength caster (Famous muscle mages) suddenly hitting icy touch on you that hits stronger than a beefed up holy fire,pyroblast or shadowbolt.

2. Deathstrike and rune tap/vampiric blood... yeah, you think  blood thirst was annoying with its % based healing, try these three spells in combination for a change, not costing anything bar a blood rune and an unholy rune. Chaining these three together in clutch as a cooldown whilst the enemy is diseased can be pretty annoying to deal with, even with anti healing measures, the sustain is just ridiculous the more hp the target has.

3. An extra pet, you'd think that having an additional pet class isn't as bad till you realize that a ghoul pet when glyphed/talented benefits double off the dk-s stats compared to any pet scaling in game. You can check it in any client revision of wotlk, ghouls have more strength than the deathknight in question at all times. Now imagine here where you stack mod atop of mod and eventualy somehow get a few hunter pet specific talents work for you as well.

4. Icebound fortitude, asides granting Dr based on your defense rating (partialy static when glyphed) it doesn't let you to get stunned. Yes an anti stun mechanic atop of increased DR, one of them has to go for this spell to work with a classless clusterfuck such as Ascension.

5. Threat of thassarian talent and TG interraction, picture a meele attack doing magical damage, now picture a spell that does weapon damage, in magical but with both weapons. Whirlwind pre nerf flashbacks anyone?

6. Literaly every defensive spell/talent dks have anti-magic shell, anti magic-zone, unbreakable armor,spell deflection,acclimation.. The list goes on.

7. The pressences passively themselves whilst required if you play a pure deathknight, in a classless enviroment could cause weird glitchy unintended behavior (gcd from unholy pressence for instance or raw armor increase from frost pressence that would work with shields too+ passive DR)

Just thinking bout it makes it repulsive and gag inducing, there is so much stuff that would outright need to get reworked completely just so its not a empty talent slot, some removed and some just nerfed in terms of scaling and what nots. That is all under the asumption we will ever hit wotlk to get these spells going, cause in the state they are they are in no way acclimated to be used in an TBC or Vanilla era of base ability damage and gear scaling.

Edited by Soklava45

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Content is released roughly following the order blizz released it, so I bet DKs will be in when wrath hits. There's roughly 3 years till wrath. 3 years to playtest on PTR, listen to feedback from players and balance. It took blizz a year to tune the most bonkers parts of DK in line with other classes. 3 years should be enough for Ascension devs to do their job. Will the devs use this time wisely or ignore DKs till the last moment, that's the question.

Though I have no doubt that S5 would be as fun and as engaging as it was back then in '09. Some things are doomed to repeat themselves. 

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