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Hysteria

Recent balance article.

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After reading the newest balance article, I feel like quitting until TBC or for a half a year at least.

1) First, players will have a global 10% reduction in all magical damage and healing while a shield is equipped. 
2) While a Staff is equipped you will get a flat 6% damage and 4% healing increase and while and Off-Hand is equipped you will get a flat 4% damage and 2% healing increase.
3) This should help offset the power lost by not dual-wielding and the additional power lost from the RE slot you have to forgo with using a Staff.

 

1) So, I just equip a shield, anybuildever, and get a huge nerf. Best design ever. This deserves profanity.
2) Then, you want to bring up an idea, that helps going staff-only or 1h+off hand, and it is totaly contradictory to our current problems.  "Casters have too much healing power, we are going to adress this" and the next balance patch will give a global aura that gives EVERY caster a healing buff. A+. We want to nerf but we will buff.

You will probably say something like "don't forget - healing spells are not getting the haste bonus now - this is one of the ways to nerf caster healing". Just no. Everyone uses rejuv, riptide, earth shield. Hard-casting long heals is pretty rare. And your new design just buffed a problem we have.

3) People are going for shield in PVP because the power levels of having bis gear and RE's is way off the scale and you cant survive w/o that physical mitigation a shield provides.  

Until this is tested, and we have a post going through all spells individually, with current info i receive a 4.35% total heal amount nerf, and a 24.48% total HPS nerf in both pvp and pve specs. 
It is atm pretty much damn impossible to cast a 2 sec spell w/o getting CC'ed while dueling. I'm not talking about icy veins or some other buffs, just a regular cast. Now it will jump up to 2.5 and the player experience and timing gap for CC becomes even worse.

 

 

I would much rather:

1) Go through 60 level only sets, t1,t2,t2.5,t3,pvp sets - and get rid of most spell power on those. As a start, I would divide the X of spell power stat into (0,75 X of spell damage + 0,25 X of spell power) for casters and  (0,75 X of spell healing + 0,25 X of spell power) for healers. 

2) To get rid of spell mastery w/o effing anything up too much just work on all spell talents, ALL, not just casters.

3) Feel like healing is a bit too high? I'm the heal that says so in our gchat when we discuss balance. Just nerf it by 10% for a season, and then adjust after it. All base amounts, scaling and so on.

Dont just nerf everyone ever who equips a shield. 

 

At this point I'd much rather see the next stream a dev call in chat a 10-10 wsg and get some live experience. Get some top Exiled and Oak players in the other team, and survive vs them w/o the shield and spell mastery as a heal. Show us da wae. 

 

I keep my fingers crossed until full notes come, and there actually will be some haste for heals. And not the "spell mastery gives now 25% haste" (but it still is actually 20%) kind of haste. 

 

Until then, yours
0.75% of Hysteria. 

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7 hours ago, Hysteria said:

Dont just nerf everyone ever who equips a shield. 

I have to say I agree with this. 

I'd like the balance team to remember that this is now a deterrent from ANYONE ever using a shield in a non-caster build.

Let's say shield slammers for example, they're now suffering a -10% damage and healing done from Defensive stance, as well as an extra -10% magic damage and an EXTRA -10% healing with to me is sort of ridiculous.

Also if someone wants to make a 1 hander build using a single one hander and a shield for a lil extra survivability they can't do that without suffering a massive penalty, which is -10% healing to self.

I'd like to see some way in which only the intended audience of the spell mastery nerf will be addressed. Not anyone using a shield ever.

 

+1

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9 hours ago, Hysteria said:

Until this is tested, and we have a post going through all spells individually, with current info i receive a 4.35% total heal amount nerf, and a 24.48% total HPS nerf in both pvp and pve specs. 
It is atm pretty much damn impossible to cast a 2 sec spell w/o getting CC'ed while dueling. I'm not talking about icy veins or some other buffs, just a regular cast. Now it will jump up to 2.5 and the player experience and timing gap for CC becomes even worse.

This pretty much sums it up. 
 

Seems like the developers just want everyone to run melee builds in pvp. You got a cast time? Well you are all out of luck. Besides these changes also fucks over the pve scene, healers especially with out any cast time reduction on healing spells, the raids would have to be re-balanced (again). Why are the developers so cockhungry on pushing major balance patches before a major content release. Shit like this could have waited until Tbc had been released. But no, had to push it out before naxx. 
 

These kind of decisions are not healthy.

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On 4/9/2019 at 3:18 PM, Hysteria said:

At this point I'd much rather see the next stream a dev call in chat a 10-10 wsg and get some live experience. Get some top Exiled and Oak players in the other team, and survive vs them w/o the shield and spell mastery as a heal. Show us da wae. 

 

I'd pay to see or participate in this tbh. 

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Hey, I like hysteria's idea of having the devs be tested in PvP w/ Oak and Exiled some of the top players to PvP and see how it works for them. The reason healers run a shield so they dont get one shotted. You are taking the possibility of one shotting onto another level at this point.

Shields shouldnt put you at a disadvantage but rather give you an advantage. Clearly when you have a shield damage will be lower. When this goes through Shield builds in pvp will suffer huge w/ survivability and damage. Why go shield now?

Exactly, you don't....

Great update :D,

 

Replay ❤️

 

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If they could nerf TG this way why not shields..
and imo Shields is the new TG and needs to be balacned to fit current meta.

Maybe these balance changes is not the right way to do it..
But lets test is and then we can make valid judgment.
I acutaly thinks this is going to turn out fine. But i can see why people wory.
 

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Yeah or instead of letting oak and exiled Players go at each other to test pvp stuff what about actually asking the pvp scene on LS for suggestions. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Tryant said:

If they could nerf TG this way why not shields..
and imo Shields is the new TG and needs to be balacned to fit current meta.

Maybe these balance changes is not the right way to do it..
But lets test is and then we can make valid judgment.
I acutaly thinks this is going to turn out fine. But i can see why people wory.
 

I agree with Tryant and Peel2g. Lets test this first and see how it turns out. Wicky usually listens to player feedback on such extreme changes.

On the other hand Shield builds using spellpower are ridiculously strong in pvp right now. Shield healers with 2-3 dots and hots are kind of op in terms of survivability and taking down melees with low selfheal.

I know I'll sound like a broken record but I think people are as usual overreacting a bit like the OP. It's not like those changes are set in stone for eternity and can never be changed. It's simply something they want to try out and see if it works to fix spellpower shield builds.

Edited by Mikkiller93

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I will reply in two parts.

 

Peel2G and other who share that point of view. Please don't think that I do not care for LS, it's rules and players. I just have a much much better idea of who is at the top of the food chain on the realm I play, and its Oak and Exiled players. There are ofcourse very skilled individuals from other guilds, but the overwhelmingly vast majority of top pvp players belongs to the abovementioned ones. 

 

As for the people that think that we are afraid of nerfs. I am indeed against a 25% nerf to my build, and I am totally ok, and repeatedly said so, that a 10% nerf is needed. So if I got a 15% nerf, I'd be a bit sad, but 25%.... However - this is not the issue I was targeting!! The design philosophy of the nerfs is just unbearably bad. I will repeat - everyone who equips a shield is nerfed. Just imagine the pain of a newcomer to the realm. "Oh I got a rare shield drop from that 20 level dungeon, hell it took us 2 hours to get the full group up and running, but it was worth it. *10 minutes later* Wait, why am I doing less damage...." 

And the second thing is a direct, DIRECT, contradiction to the plan mentioned several times and acknowledged by pretty much the whole pop. Healing needs nerfs, we all agree on this. IM A HEALER and I'm for heal nerfs. And they give a global healing buff to EACH 1h+offhand. 

 

P.S. 
you have no idea how many times i refrained from using profanity. it's deserved here.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Hysteria said:

everyone who equips a shield is nerfed. Just imagine the pain of a newcomer to the realm. "Oh I got a rare shield drop from that 20 level dungeon, hell it took us 2 hours to get the full group up and running, but it was worth it. *10 minutes later* Wait, why am I doing less damage...." 

Casters with shield doing far better than any other variants (staff / 1hand+oh).... YES.... Could they use nerf.. Hell yea............would it be big deal overall....Not at all.
SP tanks..... Could they use nerf to sustain......Hell yes....Could the use nerf to dmg..... Yes.......would pve care......No
Normal tanks... Could their sustain be nerfed..... Yes.... 
would dmg nerf matter.......not rly............... would pve care.... No 

1 hour ago, Hysteria said:

As for the people that think that we are afraid of nerfs. I am indeed against a 25% nerf to my build, and I am totally ok, and repeatedly said so, that a 10% nerf is needed. So if I got a 15% nerf, I'd be a bit sad, but 25%

Finally a decent balance change to casters. This have been needed for so long (pvp aspect) 
Some builds might be nerfed to much by this, but can be buffed when there is valid information...
Overall this balance change can either be a huge sucess or epic fail... so we just have to hope for the best.



 

Edited by Tryant

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They could just change the stat allocation system again to further lower the power of all characters. And/Or just remove the RE system. There's just too much power to characters overall atm in Ascension comparative to our health levels. If you don't want theys systems to change only way I see to balance it is with a 50% damage/healing nerf in pvp. This does give even more power to tank though so some adjustment will have to be done there aswell. Just the current power creep is too exponential and something needs to be done to fix the underlying problems instead of these bandaid fixes. 

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, lewtorz said:

They could just change the stat allocation system again to further lower the power of all characters. And/Or just remove the RE system. There's just too much power to characters overall atm in Ascension comparative to our health levels. If you don't want theys systems to change only way I see to balance it is with a 50% damage/healing nerf in pvp. This does give even more power to tank though so some adjustment will have to be done there aswell. Just the current power creep is too exponential and something needs to be done to fix the underlying problems instead of these bandaid fixes. 

REs have been nerfed massively already and are not even close to having an impact as they had in the past. Nerfing stat allocation wouldn't do anything because the Issues in pvp are spellpower tanks with shields and healers with shields. And that is what they are nerfing exactly. So just wait and see how it turns out. Tryant explained it very well. Nerfing healing and magic damage while wearing shields is the best way to tackle the exact issue builds that we currently have without impacting pve too much.

Edited by Mikkiller93

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Posted (edited)

I feel like Ascension balance in PvP is about to take a nosedive, can just feel it coming.. :D 
The balance team want to steer the buss all of the place.


Regarding Spell Mastery...
Honestly I would rather have a flat 25% healing nerf than a 25% haste nerf and I'm a healer!..
Don't take away the fun factor just for some lazy fix because SP builds are dominating
Most SP builds in the meta are Hybrids without Spell Mastery or Casters that function from Instant casts anyway.
 

Edited by Ashsj1992

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While we're on topic of sustain, maybe it's finally time to make purge and dispel target specific magic effects first and foremost instead of dispelling random crap? It's not that hard to add a simple weight and priority system. Going like hots>barskin-like magic mitigation>PW:S and other bubbles>hard casted buffs>procs>buffs with charges. So tired of using my GCD in attempt to stop hots and dispelling god damn bloody water shield charges. Make mass dispell destroy every single magic effect the target has active instead of just one. This will reward skill, smart play and there would be no need to nerf so hard. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Mikkiller93 said:

REs have been nerfed massively already and are not even close to having an impact as they had in the past.

When you can have 35.7% increased healing to certain spells from six random enchants, and when this amount is only attainable from certain item level reforges, yes, they still have a massive impact.

They are still beyond dumb and they still need addressing. There is no larger gap than atrocious shit like that.

3 hours ago, Jandice Barov said:

While we're on topic of sustain, maybe it's finally time to make purge and dispel target specific magic effects first and foremost instead of dispelling random crap? It's not that hard to add a simple weight and priority system. Going like hots>barskin-like magic mitigation>PW:S and other bubbles>hard casted buffs>procs>buffs with charges. So tired of using my GCD in attempt to stop hots and dispelling god damn bloody water shield charges. Make mass dispell destroy every single magic effect the target has active instead of just one. This will reward skill, smart play and there would be no need to nerf so hard. 

And that is how the power level of purge and dispel magic is kept in check.

Big future concerns are GCD caps for instant healers pre-tbc (i.e druid spells and Riptide/Renew) how they're going to fare in larger PvE scenarios...lacking the 1 sec GCD is going to be a big fuck you to those archetypes, especially in 25m. The throughput of these are already through the roof, but the gcd cap was a flagship.

Edited by Gubbyascension

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Posted (edited)

Removing spell mastery right now is a way of making sure that the only healing spells used in PVP are instant casts.
It's 25% haste for fuck sake, and hardcasting is already suffering with the amount of CC, interrupts and silences available.
And we lost 6% haste last patch aswell.

Actually insane how something like this could go through right now.

I mean even for PVE 

 

  • Creatures and bosses in dungeons and raids now deal 20% less damage.



Removing spell mastery leaves the healers more open to everything, the changes makes it so we have less reactive healing, less mobility, become more vulnerable to interrupts, knockdowns or any form of CC. And this is along with the staff + offhand things are supposed to bandaid it? They don't help out with the problem that arises, just provides more overhealing%.
All of this also applies to PVP.

Not to mention you're really shooting yourself in the foot here when it comes to Naxx, I'd assume you'd want it to be the "raid" in vanilla.
But at the pace we're going i have half the healing output i had in BWL. And slowing the pace of Naxx down aint really what should be needed here, the very opposite should be the case. It should be hectic & difficult.

This is really the type of thing you change with an expansion, not just before a new end-game raid tier.

Edited by Cajden
Additions

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A regular change in mechanics will force people to experiment.  Who knows ... could lead to some interesting new builds etc. Stop QQ and try it? If it is fkkd THEN complain!!!! Just my 2 cents.

 

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11 minutes ago, Flora said:

A regular change in mechanics will force people to experiment.  Who knows ... could lead to some interesting new builds etc. Stop QQ and try it? If it is fkkd THEN complain!!!! Just my 2 cents.

 

Except most of us have been playing long enough to see the out come of the effects before them even being implemented. We understand how our builds work and how factors will affect them if they get changed. And most people already do test on the ptr.

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I've been trying to work on a dps spellshield/battlemage build and I already struggle with it falling behind more focused builds, it's pretty discouraging for both its damage and threat management to get nerfed. (I don't think it's mentioned in this thread, but another shield change is it giving a new passive threat increase.) Not every shield user is a tank, you know?

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