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Felguard is NEEDING a nerf

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@Its Gucck I could beat Alp too?  Means nothing.
Alp is playing the very playstyle that is apart of the problem but with a DoT focus, although a Felhunter could work well in his build
with some /petpassive on his DB and Polly.  Also i am the one who convinced him to change to Stun immunity instead of Slow Immunity
So lets not use his name to strengthen your non existent debate here.

Every suggested "counter" so far has been answered to be a false counter
"should be able to beat a felguard spec" Is not a valid debate.

Edited by Ashsj1992

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as a caster you beat it with cross cc

cc the player slow the pet and kill the pet

as a melee i would slow it with poisons or any other slow and kill the player, when it connects dodge the dmg with deterrence or evasion

its a melee pet and dosent have any speed increases or cc immunities/breakers like bm pets way easier to handle in my opinion

Edited by Alp

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The real question should be how many points do felguard specs talent to make their "spell" viable compared to another pvper talent investment to their main ability.  If the investment is far less for the dmg caused per second note a felguard has a 2 second swing timer and assuming a melee slow on the felguard would slow to 2.4 seconds per swing.  now 1k from what im reading in the forum post every 2.4 seconds is a terrible dps. 

On the other hand if you are complaining about heals/hots, purge is strong.

deterrence- you can cheap shot ppl through deterrence then go into a stun

And finally saying wow takes skill i have played a ton of pvp from tbc - wotlk and most classes run 5-6 buttons which doesn't take much skill. 

I've seen too many ppl bubble vanish on this server so much its ridiculous we should just get rid of those instead. 

Finally, one spec is not supposed to win against every other spec, which i doubt felguard spec does.

Edited by rtsands45

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@Alp Oh Good someone who can actually debate something.
So your talking about Gucci ? he is not a skilled player, the fact he competes with you is because his playstyle carries him.
With that in mind he does not use Dispel Magic, Mass D, or Tremor which naturally should be apart of a Felguard build which makes Cross CC unreliable.
Slow it with poisons ? i would hardly put this into the reliable category, kinda of relies on positioning, a pet user should be using positioning to there advantage.
We have already mentioned how Deterrence and Felguard is bugged and does nothing, Evasion is a counter ofc, but no were near enough.


@rtsands45I think most of us understand the the dps output of this build is no overpowered, however the dps is not the issue here. 
The fact the Meta is mostly sustain healing proves they are too strong ? That evidence means more than words here, i don't need to debate that. 
You can also Killing Spree through a Deterrence although its still a very high value ability, that can be used in a number of different ways. 
Usually i use to eat abilities like Death Coil then cancelaura into rotation.
I wouldn't say this playstyle can't be beaten.. but i would certainly put it in first place and considered everything is overscaled that means a lot. 

Edited by Ashsj1992

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39 minutes ago, Ashsj1992 said:

@Its Gucck I could beat Alp too?  Means nothing.
Alp is playing the very playstyle that is apart of the problem but with a DoT focus, although a Felhunter could work well in his build
with some /petpassive on his DB and Polly.  Also i am the one who convinced him to change to Stun immunity instead of Slow Immunity
So lets not use his name to strengthen your non existent debate here.

Every suggested "counter" so far has been answered to be a false counter
"should be able to beat a felguard spec" Is not a valid debate.

Every spec has certain counters, I Can beat Someone That Can beat someone That I cant, Thats How it is. But i’m just delusional I guess 🤷🏻‍♂️

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12 minutes ago, rtsands45 said:

The real question should be how many points do felguard specs talent to make their "spell" viable compared to another pvper talent investment to their main ability.  If the investment is far less for the dmg caused per second note a felguard has a 2 second swing timer and assuming a melee slow on the felguard would slow to 2.4 seconds per swing.  now 1k from what im reading in the forum post every 2.4 seconds is a terrible dps. 

On the other hand if you are complaining about heals/hots, purge is strong.

deterrence- you can cheap shot ppl through deterrence then go into a stun

And finally saying wow takes skill i have played a ton of pvp from tbc - wotlk and most classes run 5-6 buttons which doesn't take much skill. 

I've seen too many ppl bubble vanish on this server so much its ridiculous we should just get rid of those instead. 

Finally, one spec is not supposed to win against every other spec, which i doubt felguard spec does.

I have 35 points in demonoligy to make That spec viable. I struggle to even get hitcapped, let alone do more damage than a Wet noodle. Run me dry of mana or Kill my pet and victory is yours. It’s really simple, but once people have set their mind on something being “OP” then yeah, they’ll do anything to counter argument it. On another note - felguard specs requires lots of REs and gear, so its not like its easy to aquire either. Dedication towards any spec Can make it powerful - people just gotta try harder and not cry about it on the forum everytime they fail to one-shot their opponent..

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8 minutes ago, Ashsj1992 said:


@Alp Oh Good someone who can actually debate something.
So your talking about Gucci ? he is not a skilled player, the fact he competes with you is because his playstyle carries him.
With that in mind he does not use Dispel Magic, Mass D, or Tremor which naturally should be apart of a Felguard build which makes Cross CC unreliable.
Slow it with poisons ? i would hardly put this into the reliable category, kinda of relies on positioning, a pet user should be using positioning to there advantage.
We have already mentioned how Deterrence and Felguard is bugged and does nothing, Evasion is a counter ofc, but no were near enough.

Oh its you Grenvalen? It all Makes sense now haha. Not being skilled and not being able to invest points in certain abilties is different things. Besides, my spec works fine without the above. But you Can Think What you want, If calling me bad, makes you feel Good about yourself then I say go for it kiddo. 

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@Its Gucck 
You do realise that you are the most bias person to be here?
Here is a forum complaining about a build type, there is you playing that build type, here is you defending it. 
That said you have offered 0 information to counter anything said against it??

I would remind you my issue here is not really about the Felguard and the damage it does Its about this entire meta although i do have a personal hate for passives. 
That's my point, your spec works more than "fine" even though there is a lot more improvements to be made.
Honestly i have not seen anybody reach the full potential of your build type yet.

Edited by Ashsj1992

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13 minutes ago, Ashsj1992 said:

@Its Gucck
You do realise that you are the most bias person to be here?
Here is a forum complaining about a build type, there is you playing that build type, here is you defending it. 
That said you have offered 0 information to counter anything said against this ?? 

I would remind you my issue here is not really about the Felguard and the damage it does Its about this entire meta.
That's my point, your spec works more than "fine" even though there is a lot more improvements to be made.
Honestly i have not seen anybody reach the full potential of your build type yet.

Aha ok. I see your point. I Should remind you then That the name lf This threat is misinformstive in relation to what you claim its about then. Forums are not only made to complain in but to share information and discuss subjects in relation to the game. My point being, complaining about This current meta is pointless, work Your way around it instead. 

Also, I Think you’re underestimating What it takes to make it viable. I could easily Pick up all those things you have mentioned, but I simple wont because they’re less important That the things i currently use.

Also, Ofc I’m defending the spec. I made it, i’ve had it since the start of LS, and its Been nerfed 10 times already back When it was actually OP. 

I don’t mean to start any drama or anything, but I am just voicing my opinion, which is That I don’t agree with You in This matter.

Edited by Its Gucck

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2 minutes ago, Ashsj1992 said:


@Alp Oh Good someone who can actually debate something.
So your talking about Gucci ? he is not a skilled player, the fact he competes with you is because his playstyle carries him.
With that in mind he does not use Dispel Magic, Mass D, or Tremor which naturally should be apart of a Felguard build which makes Cross CC unreliable.
Slow it with poisons ? i would hardly put this into the reliable category, kinda of relies on positioning, a pet user should be using positioning to there advantage.
We have already mentioned how Deterrence and Felguard is bugged and does nothing, Evasion is a counter ofc, but no were near enough.

he can not dispel the pet if he is cced, tremor would not have changed anything since I dont run a fear or incap -> Zerker rage op, cant beleive the dev team dosent realise how op it is, but thats a differrent story.

 

the felguard is just a melee without mobilty that does insane amounts of dmg, you have to abuse it that is not mobile at all. BM pets are still superior in my opinion, because their dmg can not be avoided without immunities. Thanks to cc immunity and insane movement speed.

as a caster i dont think its op at all.

as a melee its for sure harder, but i think its possible to beat it too.

as a burst cc melee you could also just do something like scatter trap the player, burst the pet if u run more cc, use something like hoj on it to prevent more dmg, vanish or restealth when u run out of cc or ways to prevent the damage and repeat that until you kill it.

as a sustain melee i would run windshear, grounding and maybe even a 2nd interrupt, most likey a silence like blanket cs to prevent the player ccing or dmging me(i would run that package with every sustain melee build not specfific vs pets), slow the pet and slowly kill it and only attack it when i have energy stacked or the minor dmg abilities ready to not take to much dmg, while keeping the player controlled with the interrupts and grounding.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Alp said:

he can not dispel the pet if he is cced, tremor would not have changed anything since I dont run a fear or incap -> Zerker rage op, cant beleive the dev team dosent realise how op it is, but thats a differrent story.

 

the felguard is just a melee without mobilty that does insane amounts of dmg, you have to abuse it that is not mobile at all. BM pets are still superior in my opinion, because their dmg can not be avoided without immunities. Thanks to cc immunity and insane movement speed.

as a caster i dont think its op at all.

as a melee its for sure harder, but i think its possible to beat it too.

as a burst cc melee you could also just do something like scatter trap the player, burst the pet if u run more cc, use something like hoj on it to prevent more dmg, vanish or restealth when u run out of cc or ways to prevent the damage and repeat that until you kill it.

as a sustain melee i would run windshear, grounding and maybe even a 2nd interrupt, most likey a silence like blanket cs to prevent the player ccing or dmging me(i would run that package with every sustain melee build not specfific vs pets), slow the pet and slowly kill it and only attack it when i have energy stacked or the minor dmg abilities ready to not take to much dmg, while keeping the player controlled with the interrupts and grounding.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This however, I can agree with. The point of ascension is to explore and discover cool ways to build specs. There Will always be a way to counter certain specs, and catering to the “less” creative people with nerfs and constant adjustments is just not Good for the server. Limiting a server That is about Breaking limits just seems pointless.

Edited by Its Gucck

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@Alp

Again not really just the Felguard, its the Meta.
A BM build would not have the sustain healing and Defence a Felguard user does. 

Firstly i would like point out you could list as many counters for as to against.
As a Melee it's much harder yes.  Killing the pet is not really an option, its ridiculously tanky for a pet at least it's certainly not a "counter".

"as a sustain melee"
Again this is the problem, now you're suggesting to deal with a problem be using a another problem. 

Edited by Ashsj1992

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3 minutes ago, Ashsj1992 said:

@Alp

Again not really just the Felguard, its the Meta.
A BM build would not have the sustain healing and Defence a Felguard user does. 

Firstly i would like point out you could list an many counter for as to against.
As a Melee it's much harder yes.  Killing the pet is not really an option, its ridiculously tanky for a pet at least it's certainly not a "counter".

"as a sustain melee"
Again this is the problem, now you're suggesting to deal with a problem be using a another problem. 

Felguard is actually super squishy. It looks scary with the HP but it is rather easy to kill tbh. Anyway man, have a Good one. I’ll follow the thread to see whats gonna happen, till then i’ll continue my journey of being Thooghuns slave ;). 

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@Its Gucck

My most recent build i have been testing has very good Dps, 1.4k sustained dps as a PvP build at 2k AP,  I do not have enough damage for it be a counter for me atleast. 
I can't help but feel most of the losses you have experienced is purely down to CC or OOM, which you could counter yourself, for this reason i would put it in first place.
However with that build and its playstyle it makes perfect sense for it to be there which is why my suggestions here affects the entire meta too.

Edited by Ashsj1992

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1 hour ago, Ashsj1992 said:

@Its Gucck

My most recent build i have been testing has very good Dps, 1.4k sustained dps as a PvP build at 2k AP,  I do not have enough damage for it be a counter for me atleast. 
I can't help but feel most of the losses you have experienced is purely down to CC or OOM, which you could counter yourself, for this reason i would put it in first place.
However with that build and its playstyle it makes perfect sense for it to be there which is why my suggestions here affects the entire meta too.

True, I lose cus I am lacking those things. But I am fairly sure i’d lose more in general If I repicked and switched out the defensives and slipperyness I have now. Also, dispelling Will cause me to go oom too quickly, I am fully stam stacked so I got like, 3,5k mana only

ill continue to perfect my spec so I Can try to reach maximum potential  😃

Edited by Its Gucck

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On 2/22/2019 at 7:52 PM, Ashsj1992 said:

@Alp

Again not really just the Felguard, its the Meta.
A BM build would not have the sustain healing and Defence a Felguard user does. 

Firstly i would like point out you could list as many counters for as to against.
As a Melee it's much harder yes.  Killing the pet is not really an option, its ridiculously tanky for a pet at least it's certainly not a "counter".

"as a sustain melee"
Again this is the problem, now you're suggesting to deal with a problem be using a another problem. 

@Ashsj1992   

But u did complain about felguard tho, I've read through the whole thread, the gameplay of pet all around, felguard, etc.  And you are always dealing with problems vs other good builds, And if u beat them, then your the problem for them no ? So your last argument makes no sense :P Metamorphosis pet builds are easy to counter period. 

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Posted (edited)

@ITsTheCoon

I expressed my personal hatred for pet build yes.
I see them as automated trash, however that is not a reason for them to get nerfed.

The problem is Felguard works well in builds that are the problem, which is tanky sustain.
Alp suggested beating this by using another sustain build, which i described as using a problem to deal with a problem. 

Simply saying it's easy to counter does not mean it's easy to counter, that is an empty statement.

Ideally i wouldn't mind more counter against pets as most CC can be dispelled or is too short and they are difficult to kill.
However most importantly i would like to see healing in general take a full round nerf. 

Why resurrect this forum by attempting to point out a mistakes in my debate ?  Go find something else to do. 

Edited by Ashsj1992

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