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Dev Update #75

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10 minutes ago, Ashsj1992 said:

@Mikkiller93

You stated that they cannot bring in buffs, if there goal is to bring down the power level.
My reply was in response to that as i disagree. 

Also if there goal is to bring in the Sledge Hammer, then they are moving at an ungodly slow speed, TBC will be here first, with new problems 😂

They cannot buff builds. I wasn't talking about underpowered talents to increase options and variety. I was talking about builds in general. They cannot increase the powerlevel of builds constantly to balance the meta landscape.

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I haven't bothered to play sense the start of the year, dev's constant ignoring of fourms untill the last second and re soulbound made it a bother to even play on this server. my question to anyone who's still playing how is backstab and mutilate, is it fucked with the re limit.

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14 hours ago, Mikkiller93 said:

Sorry but if your guildmates deemed their hybrid builds not dealing competitive enough dps anymore to attempt C'thun compared to other builds that still doesn't mean hybrids have been nerfed to the ground. They have been nerfed, yes. They probably got nerfed more than they should have? Yes clearly. But the notion that they have been nerfed TO THE GROUND aka they are at the bottom is plain wrong. Hybrids are still performing exceptionally well in pvp and i doubt that their pve dps is the absolute rock bottom yet.

They clearly are on the weaker side of the spectrum and clearly deserve some buffs. But saying they have been nerfed to the ground is BS.

So i'll just throw your advice right back at you @Sky. Don't get baited into supporting dumb comments like "We need balance instead of nerfing shit to the ground" because it simply is a bullshit claim. It takes away from the valid points you actually make.

When a spec goes from being one of the top specs to one of the bottom specs then yes, it has been nerfed to the ground. As Skray said, are they still playable? sure. Are they enjoyable, satisfying, GOOD? Not really, no.

As you don't actively PvE, let me break it down for you how we enjoy it.

1) Progression is fun, figuring out new things and pushing ourselves in new ways is enjoyable. However this only lasts a certain amount of time and is over once the raid is cleared.

2) Finding new ways to push our specs to the next level either by pushing our numbers higher or even make our playstyle more enjoyable is one of the main sources of enjoyment from raiding. With the example of Hybrids in mind, players like Lewtorz, Eazymode, Vath, Epzilon, Haddeqi, Skray, Royalbloodx were some of the go-to people for hybrids. They'd pushed themselves and found something they really enjoyed. They were at the top of their game because they pushed themselves, not because hybrid was, and I quote, "The pinnacle of PvE and PvP". 

I know dozens of players who've tried to play hybrid and failed, and that was okay too.

The point is, these players who were good at hybrid were performing at the top end of PvE content, yes. Then hybrids WERE gutted and are now near the mid-to-bottom range. Could those seven specific players still make hybrid work and do decently with it? Definitely, and some have either tried or are still trying. At absolute peak performance could they be top of the game? That's extremely doubtful. The ceiling for that spec is much much lower than it ever used to be, and at least half of those names above have quit or changed specs so far.

8 hours ago, Mikkiller93 said:

Although they are still top of the pack in pvp

You realise statements like that are made into memes, because it's so far from the truth it's scary. Do you still play the same game as us, genuine question. :S

 

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9 hours ago, Sky said:

When a spec goes from being one of the top specs to one of the bottom specs then yes, it has been nerfed to the ground. As Skray said, are they still playable? sure. Are they enjoyable, satisfying, GOOD? Not really, no.

As you don't actively PvE, let me break it down for you how we enjoy it.

1) Progression is fun, figuring out new things and pushing ourselves in new ways is enjoyable. However this only lasts a certain amount of time and is over once the raid is cleared.

2) Finding new ways to push our specs to the next level either by pushing our numbers higher or even make our playstyle more enjoyable is one of the main sources of enjoyment from raiding. With the example of Hybrids in mind, players like Lewtorz, Eazymode, Vath, Epzilon, Haddeqi, Skray, Royalbloodx were some of the go-to people for hybrids. They'd pushed themselves and found something they really enjoyed. They were at the top of their game because they pushed themselves, not because hybrid was, and I quote, "The pinnacle of PvE and PvP". 

I know dozens of players who've tried to play hybrid and failed, and that was okay too.

The point is, these players who were good at hybrid were performing at the top end of PvE content, yes. Then hybrids WERE gutted and are now near the mid-to-bottom range. Could those seven specific players still make hybrid work and do decently with it? Definitely, and some have either tried or are still trying. At absolute peak performance could they be top of the game? That's extremely doubtful. The ceiling for that spec is much much lower than it ever used to be, and at least half of those names above have quit or changed specs so far.

You realise statements like that are made into memes, because it's so far from the truth it's scary. Do you still play the same game as us, genuine question. :S

 

So nobody except hybrids actually pushed themselves? It is purely due to their skill that they were the pinnacle for pve and pvp? Okay dude. Sure.

If they are near the mid to bottom range and those 7 could still make hybrid work means the builds have neither been gutted nor nerfed to the ground. You're literally contradicting yourself.

and i must wonder. Are you still playing the same game as the rest of us? Or are you just repeating what the holy 7 is telling you? Do you even play PVP?

Edited by Mikkiller93

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3 hours ago, Mikkiller93 said:

So nobody except hybrids actually pushed themselves? It is purely due to their skill that they were the pinnacle for pve and pvp? Okay dude. Sure.

If they are near the mid to bottom range and those 7 could still make hybrid work means the builds have neither been gutted nor nerfed to the ground. You're literally contradicting yourself.

and i must wonder. Are you still playing the same game as the rest of us? Or are you just repeating what the holy 7 is telling you? Do you even play PVP?

Gosh you really do love twisting what people say don't you Schlotzer? But hey I'll indulge your idiocy.

1) I never said that, what a stupid comment to make.

2) Why would someone who enjoys pushing the limits suddenly be happy with bottom to mid level? Getting their numbers cut almost in half? A numbers cut like the one hybrid received is LITERALLY the definition of nerfing to the ground. 

3) I do, actually. But you wouldn't know as you don't really play at all

Playing the game for an hour a week hardly qualifies you to make the comments you make, and is detrimental to this whole process Schlotzer. You derail threads by getting in to arguments with people (see page 2 of this thread) and generally this makes you one of the most disliked players on here. Thank you, next.

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I'll hop in here really quick and interject on what's going on. We definitely understand and agree that hybrids are in a bit of a deplorable state at the moment, as are a handful of other builds due to the recent changes. We are actively working on getting an update out to address many of these issues/outliers. Hybrid is top on our list of these. We won't be able to touch on everyone with our first update, but we will be able to get several and then we'll continue working on the rest.

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Wiiiicky... can you also take a second look at melee hunter abilities pvp scaling? XD armor buffs, stat allocation and re reduction literally cut my pvpbuilds dmg by over 50% - unplayable.

I hope someone can come on here and say they're still making it work, I doubt it though ^^

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6 hours ago, itswicky said:

Hybrid is top on our list of these. We won't be able to touch on everyone with our first update, but we will be able to get several and then we'll continue working on the rest.

Sir Hybrids could perhaps use a slightly buff. But nothing big.
They are doing very fine both in pve and pvp. The Ando guys just need adapt to the new meta and playstyle.
Hybrids were very powerful and the nerf was 100% justified. 

we have all tried to be nerfed hard. suck it up and adapt to the new meta. I know 2 hybrids thats doing very well in both pvp and pve so it can be done.

Hybrids are still top tier in pvp.
Hybrids are doing very well in pve. you just need to adapt to a new playstyle. 
So in all i consider this nerf pretty succesful, it did what it should.

Edited by Tryant

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12 minutes ago, Tryant said:

Sir Hybrids could perhaps use a slightly buff. But nothing big.
They are doing very fine both in pve and pvp. The Ando guys just need adapt to the new meta and playstyle.
Hybrids were very powerful and the nerf was 100% justified. 

we have all tried to be nerfed hard. suck it up and adapt to the new meta. I know 2 hybrids thats doing very well in both pvp and pve so it can be done.

Hybrids are still top tier in pvp.
Hybrids are doing very well in pve. you just need to adapt to a new playstyle. 
So in all i consider this nerf pretty succesful, it did what it should.

i have to agree with this statement, hybrids are fine in both pvp and pve

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16 minutes ago, Tryant said:

Sir Hybrids could perhaps use a slightly buff. But nothing big.
They are doing very fine both in pve and pvp. The Ando guys just need adapt to the new meta and playstyle.
Hybrids were very powerful and the nerf was 100% justified. 

we have all tried to be nerfed hard. suck it up and adapt to the new meta. I know 2 hybrids thats doing very well in both pvp and pve so it can be done.

Hybrids are still top tier in pvp.
Hybrids are doing very well in pve. you just need to adapt to a new playstyle. 
So in all i consider this nerf pretty succesful, it did what it should.

agreed.

I fear buffing hybrids in pve will make them out of control pvp-wise once again. 

If you consider a buff maybe tweak the AQ set bcz that is pretty shitty. 

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8 hours ago, Sky said:

Gosh you really do love twisting what people say don't you Schlotzer? But hey I'll indulge your idiocy.

1) I never said that, what a stupid comment to make.

2) Why would someone who enjoys pushing the limits suddenly be happy with bottom to mid level? Getting their numbers cut almost in half? A numbers cut like the one hybrid received is LITERALLY the definition of nerfing to the ground. 

3) I do, actually. But you wouldn't know as you don't really play at all

Playing the game for an hour a week hardly qualifies you to make the comments you make, and is detrimental to this whole process Schlotzer. You derail threads by getting in to arguments with people (see page 2 of this thread) and generally this makes you one of the most disliked players on here. Thank you, next.

1. That was literally what you said. You said that they were at the top of their game because they pushed themselves and not because hybrids were the pinnacle of pve and PvP. But no matter if they pushed themselves or not. Hybrids simply were the pinnacle of pve and pvp before they started nerfing them. 

2. I don't understand why you are arguing on the definition. What you interprete as nerfed to the ground is not LITERALLY the definition of it. The literal definition is that something has been nerfed TO THE GROUND. bot to mid level is NOT the ground. That would be LITERAL. 

Also claiming their numbers were cut in HALF? Just lol. 

3. I don't know. To me it seems like you are the one not playing at all. Raid logging much? Do you even experience the game outside of your little personal safe space raid environment? 

One of the most disliked players Hu? Guess it depends on who you ask. So by whom? Your clique? Don't make me laugh. You're so arrogant and so deep inside your own little world that you built with your friends that kiss your feet all day long you don't even see the truth infront of you anymore. A severe case of a god complex is what I call that. 

I'd suggest checking back in with reality once in a while if I were you.

Edit: Oh would you look at that. Tryant, peel2g AND EVEN frostbolt seems to get it. Finally some voices of reason. Although I will contradict frostbolt here a little bit by saying that some hybrids could receive some smaller buffs for pve. Fire hybrid for example really took a big hit. 

Edited by Mikkiller93

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14 minutes ago, Mikkiller93 said:

Voices of reason for once.

🙄 For once you say. Ok. Stop being an angery joerman, Schlotzi. 

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4 minutes ago, Peel2g said:

🙄 For once you say. Ok. Stop being an angery joerman, Schlotzi. 

Sorry man 😂 that was an unfortunate choice of words that id like to blame on my lack of experience with the english language. Ofc I meant something more along the lines of "finally, voices of reason". Meaning that YOU are a voice of reason. 

Edited by Mikkiller93

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50 minutes ago, Tryant said:

Sir Hybrids could perhaps use a slightly buff. But nothing big.
They are doing very fine both in pve and pvp. The Ando guys just need adapt to the new meta and playstyle.
Hybrids were very powerful and the nerf was 100% justified. 

we have all tried to be nerfed hard. suck it up and adapt to the new meta. I know 2 hybrids thats doing very well in both pvp and pve so it can be done.

Hybrids are still top tier in pvp.
Hybrids are doing very well in pve. you just need to adapt to a new playstyle. 
So in all i consider this nerf pretty succesful, it did what it should.

37 minutes ago, Frostbolt/Rank1#LS said:

i have to agree with this statement, hybrids are fine in both pvp and pve

They lost 25% of their SP, an additional 80 SP from the flask nerf, then also suffered the same % stat nerfs and allocation nerfs everyone else did. On top of that, they were already struggling with high-value REs before 3stacking.

Certain gimmick hybrid builds can succeed in PvP still yes, but I'd hardly consider those to be the benchmark for hybrids currently. Their PvE performance tanked hard; that isn't a matter of opinion, it's an objective fact that can be proven. Simple fact of the matter is hybrids were hit hard unfairly, and by the sound of it some of that is being rectified.

 

Also, not directed at you two necessarily, but the idea that hybrids were the "pinnacle of PvE" hasn't been even remotely true since sword spec was nerfed. That was the only outstandingly strong version of hybrid DPS, everything else was merely "pretty good". Outclassed in many ways by other specs.

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45 minutes ago, Mikkiller93 said:

 Hybrids simply were the pinnacle of pve and pvp before they started nerfing them

This is simply not true.

In AQ, the top melee DPS specs were Melee hunter, Thunderclap and TG.  Hybrids were close, but did not top the meters over these specs.  Slam and feral could also be contenders for some of the best melee specs as well.

Since the nerfs, Hybrids have lost probably about 25-30% of their DPS in PVE, while Melee Hunter, Thunderclap and TG are still on the top of the meters doing around the same amount of DPS as always.   They may not be rock bottom.  But why would you want to play hybrid when you can just play a much better performing spec?

Edited by Skray

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10 minutes ago, smart blart said:

Certain gimmick hybrid builds can succeed in PvP still yes, but I'd hardly consider those to be the benchmark for hybrids currently. Their PvE performance tanked hard; that isn't a matter of opinion, it's an objective fact that can be proven. Simple fact of the matter is hybrids were hit hard unfairly, and by the sound of it some of that is being rectified.

Maybe on Ando there havent been any good PVP Hybrids but on LS / BS they are still doing fine and close to 1 shotting players.

For archiving top in pve a new playstyle is needed. Hybrids had some abilites that were low dmg and offered little dps increase. 
Hybrid is now a Hybrid and not a melee who use auto attacks and cast a instant cast once a while. Either adapt or change.
Also if you want maximun dps out of them they need to be supported. If you do that then they start doing very well again 

Edited by Tryant

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Just now, Tryant said:

Maybe on Ando there havent been any good PVP Hybrids but on LS / BS they are still doing fine and close to 1 shotting players.

For archiving top in pve a new playstyle is needed. Hybrids had some abilites that were low dmg and offered little dmg. 
Hybrid is now a Hybrid and not a melee who use auto attacks and cast a instant cast once a while. Either adapt or change.
Also if you want maximun dps out of them they need to be supported. If you do that then they start doing very well again 

No one said hybrids aren't good in PvP, we are only arguing for the sake of PvE here.

 

Also "Hybrids had some abilites that were low dmg and offered little dmg" and "if you want maximun dps out of them they need to be supported" sounds like hybrids need a buff to me, lol.

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4 minutes ago, Tryant said:

Maybe on Ando there havent been any good PVP Hybrids but on LS / BS they are still doing fine and close to 1 shotting players.

Proofs? I don't mind if you just DM them to me.

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29 minutes ago, Skray said:

This is simply not true.

In AQ, the top melee DPS specs were Melee hunter, Thunderclap and TG.  Hybrids were close, but did not top the meters over these specs.  Slam and feral could also be contenders for some of the best melee specs as well.

Since the nerfs, Hybrids have lost probably about 25-30% of their DPS in PVE, while Melee Hunter, Thunderclap and TG are still on the top of the meters doing around the same amount of DPS as always.   They may not be rock bottom.  But why would you want to play hybrid when you can just play a much better performing spec?

Dude it is true. Sword spec hybrid was the single highest dps build in the game before they nerfed it. 

Obviously I was talking about hybrids before sword spec nerf VS. Hybrids now. That's when they clearly WERE the pinnacle of both pve and PvP

Also I mentioned this before but Hybrids didn't get nerfed overnight.

Ever since it started with the sword spec nerf hybrids have received nerfs every few patches. Which now caused hybrids to reach a new lowpoint with the recent nerfs to scaling and 3 stack RE change. 

Otherwise I fully agree with what you said. They're not rock bottom but they definitely deserve some pve buffs. 

Edited by Mikkiller93

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Just now, Mikkiller93 said:

Dude it is true. Sword spec hybrid was the single highest dps build in the game. 

Obviously I was talking about hybrids before sword spec nerf VS. Hybrids now. That's when they clearly WERE the pinnacle of both pve and PvP

Also I mentioned this before but Hybrids didn't get nerfed overnight.

Ever since sword spec nerf hybrids have received nerfs every few patches. Which now ofc has become most apparent with the recent nerfs to scaling and 3 stack RE change. 

Otherwise I fully agree with what you said. They're not rock bottom but they definitely deserve some pve buffs. 

"Sword spec hybrid was the single highest dps build in the game."

 

Yeah, on dummies where you couldn't get your auto-attacks dodged or glanced, sure. Saying Sword Spec hybrid was the highest ST dps is also wrong: melee hunter, conflag, shred cat are just examples of builds that outdpsed sword spec hybrids in it's prime on actual boss fights (for the love of god, dummy dps is irrelevant here as it inflates the damage of extra attack specs)

Not saying Sword Spec hybrids weren't very good (I know that, I was the one playing it), but they were hardly the "single highest dps build". Also, the archetype was killed a few months ago anyway. What about all the other hybrid specs who were "average" and now suffer even more ?

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Sword Spec REs/Talents were also used by TG with Bonereaver/Untamed blade at the same time that hybrid was using it.


Which also kinda points to a lack of good REs for TG in the middle stages of the game.  In MC/BWL the best weapons are Swords and a TG kinda lacks good REs to use.  But once a TG obtains Dark Edge he can swap to the superior Poleaxe REs which are such a big damage % boost. 

Edited by Skray

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Just now, smart blart said:

Proofs? I don't mind if you just DM them to me.

yea go do 1 bg on BS and you meet Glaive and you can feel the dmg for urslef.

Just now, mecar said:

Also "Hybrids had some abilites that were low dmg and offered little dmg" and "if you want maximun dps out of them they need to be supported" sounds like hybrids need a buff to me, lol.

Yes a very small buff would be fine as i said earlier.
And every build needs to be supported to archive their maximun. That´s how it is for everyone. 

Just now, Tryant said:

Hybrid is now a Hybrid and not a melee who use auto attacks and cast a instant cast once a while. Either adapt or change.

Yes Tryant 100% correct. Hybrids is no longer auto attacking brainless monkeys. Skilllevel increased for hybrids and the meta change made them real hybrids.
Either adapt or change build.

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1 minute ago, mecar said:

"Sword spec hybrid was the single highest dps build in the game."

 

Yeah, on dummies where you couldn't get your auto-attacks dodged or glanced, sure. Saying Sword Spec hybrid was the highest ST dps is also wrong: melee hunter, conflag, shred cat are just examples of builds that outdpsed sword spec hybrids in it's prime on actual boss fights (for the love of god, dummy dps is irrelevant here as it inflates the damage of extra attack specs)

Not saying Sword Spec hybrids weren't very good (I know that, I was the one playing it), but they were hardly the "single highest dps build". Also, the archetype was killed a few months ago anyway. What about all the other hybrid specs who were "average" and now suffer even more ?

Dude I am in full agreement that hybrids who were previously average or good at best have suffered more than others and deserve pve buffs. I never claimed anything else. 

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Just now, Mikkiller93 said:

Dude I am in full agreement that hybrids who were previously average or good at best have suffered more than others and deserve pve buffs. I never claimed anything else. 

I'm not saying you claimed otherwise, I'm just correcting you on the "Sword Spec" part as testing it's dps on dummies just inflates the numbers. It's one of the specs that is the most reliant on autoattacks, spell hits etc... and dummies cannot partially resist spells or glance your autoattacks.

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1 minute ago, Mikkiller93 said:

Dude it is true. Sword spec hybrid was the single highest dps build in the game. 

Obviously I was talking about hybrids before sword spec nerf VS. Hybrids now. That's when they clearly WERE the pinnacle of both pve and PvP

Correct, and it got nerfed well before Bloodscalp even opened. Why is this relevant?

3 minutes ago, Mikkiller93 said:

Also I mentioned this before but Hybrids didn't get nerfed overnight.

Ever since sword spec nerf hybrids have received nerfs every few patches. Which now ofc has become most apparent with the recent nerfs to scaling and 3 stack RE change. 

Let's take a walk through the changelog:

  • Changes made on 2018/11/30
    Fixed a bug where the Sword Specialization RE didn't share its ICD with the talent.

Since then there were zero nerfs to hybrids excluding the seasonal changes. In fact, there were a number of buffs/positive changes to hybrid talents based around stormstrike and s2h hybrids. There were even indirect buffs, like the HAT thieves rework basically meant hybrids would trigger the ICD every 1.5 sec with only 1 point in HAT.

Even with all those buffs, they were not the "pinnacle of PvE". They had a brief resurgence in PvP with the s2h hybrid buffs, but that was handled pretty quickly.

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