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Inspecting builds.

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3 minutes ago, Peel2g said:

Sorry to ruin your day But thats exactly how the real world is functioning. Do you really believe that a brandnew hired coworker of yours with 0 experience or expertise should get the same paycheck as you do while you hustling for that company for many years ? Thats such a millenial way of thinking. You should never get things served on a silverplate but rather work towards your Goals. If youre not willing to improve and increase your knowledge on your own and with your own time youre rightfully the sheep that gets slaughtered in a bg or open world. Because the exact thing will occur to you in the real world. 

 

Also the way to gather knowledge or get tipps and tricks from should come from the guild youll end up joining and not a random player youll Steal a build from but never interacted with to begin with. Thats straight up the worst way i can think of.

 

Btw the discussion is over since the feature wont be implemented. You should take my words tho and rethink your own mindset. Itll help you in the long run.

 

Gday 

That's kind of a terrible metaphor, because build copying is what happens at a job.

That job wants you to be as efficient and effective as possible, so as a new employee (player) they are going to take the method they worked out to be the best that the older coworker is using, and tell you to use that.

They're not going to throw you in and say "figure it out and if you don't you're fired".  That's a way to burn through employees super fast.  They want a body in the chair that can follow instructions and copy what they know to be best.  And if you figure out a more efficient way to do something, you better share it with your coworkers to improve the entire job.

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You say the feature is antisocial. For me it sounds like you don’t want anyone to see your super OP build. That you are a special snowflake. Oh wait, isn’t it kinda antisocial?

Lets compare it to the normal wow rather than the real world. Build inspect in wow was since beta as well as guides how to spend your talents effectively. So you could either go to google or inspect other characters of your class to see their build and get the idea.

You can inspect other players and talk to them why they think one talent is better than other, or you can see their builds and then prepare your own build with knowledge what others are using so you can better prepare against them. Basicly it just speeds up the process of creating counter builds to popular builds and changing meta.

So for me, it brings healthier meta, players are more social about builds in-game and new players can see what others are using, it makes the world not so secret and shady.

Btw I had similar functionality in my addon back in august 2018 (Where did you get the idea devs? xD ). It allowed you to inspect or share builds in-game. Well, it was in testing phase because SendAddonMessage() function did not work properly (maybe it still don't work) so data were sent via whispers. You could inspect builds of other players who had Talent Calc addon (and allowed inspection in the addon settings) and you could send your made up build as a link to other player in chat. I started to work on it to bring another social layer to the game. Shame I was inactive since then. 

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On 1/31/2019 at 5:19 PM, nasmi said:

Ascension is the only game I have been playing for the last 2 years, it had its ups and downs, but I never stopped playing.

 

Last winter when like more or less 10 People were on max? still playing every day

Nerfing builds/REs and setting my Progress to 0? No Problem, I'll find some new build

 

But THIS is a change I just cant cope with. Not only does that fuck over every one who likes to theorycraft, imo its also a really bad idea for new players. What happend to "we are not making respecs free or cheaper so people invest time and effort in their builds to improve them. Othervise they are going to test some build and just respec if its not good" ???

 

 Whats better? If u give a hungry man a fish to eat, or if u teach him how to fish? Every day people ask me about builds and I help them and get them on the right track, they understand the rota, why certain talents are needed and why certain things work better than others. Eventually they will improve and get their own flavor to the build and get attached to ther chars/builds.

On the other hand we have a fresh new 60 that sees a crazy geared Player, copies their spec without knowing the background of the spec. Maybe its a non gear/non RE/non-Rota dependant spec and it could work, but most of the times he will be massively disapointed.

I know that ascension can be difficult for new players, i personally brought many friends here and had to explain them a lot of the stuff from the server, but giving them a spreadsheet for the best specs in game isnt the right way imo.

 

Im spending at least 75% of my gold and time in Ascension for respecs and theroycrafting, cause I like to find non meta vaible builds. Why should I continue doing so if you take away the main selling point of the server: creating an unique individual character? I know not everyone thinks that way, some people just wanne nuke others in bg and have fun, that fine too, these players can BUY builds if they dont feel like putting effort in creating a build.

And FYI I have never ever refused to help some new player with their builds when they asked me and neither have I ever charged gold for any of this help or spec I shared. But at the end oft he day it was MY decision to share the build and how much of the build I wannted to share.

All in all I can say if this will be implemented, and there is no way to avoid people seeing your main spec (e.g. they can only see current spec) I will 100% leave the server.

And even if u can hide your main spec, that means I wont ever be joining pugs or dung browser outside of the guild. Not because my build is extreamly good or precious, but beacuse its MY build that i put effort and time into. Anybody want that build or at least some hints? Have the decency to ask me, and not rightclick my profile pic to get the same results I did after spending 1000s of gold and hours of time.

Damn well said. 

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2 hours ago, Skray said:

That's kind of a terrible metaphor, because build copying is what happens at a job.

That job wants you to be as efficient and effective as possible, so as a new employee (player) they are going to take the method they worked out to be the best that the older coworker is using, and tell you to use that.

They're not going to throw you in and say "figure it out and if you don't you're fired".  That's a way to burn through employees super fast.  They want a body in the chair that can follow instructions and copy what they know to be best.  And if you figure out a more efficient way to do something, you better share it with your coworkers to improve the entire job.

its not a metaphor its an analogy. And No youre incorrect imo. You get to be taught the basics and you then figure out how to put the pieces you learned together yourself unless youre doing the simpliest of jobs ever, then you might have a point.

Theres a reason the outcry was so heavy on this feature and im glad the team took a step back from it. I dont mind it to be implemented btw but you have to give everyone the option to not partake in that and have the feature disabled. The ones who want to share can do so - but theres plenty of gamers who dont want it - period.

Cheers for you having the mindset off sharing inventions you have to everyone you know - you better dont do that in your job and let everyone arround you take credit for it. Youll shoot yourself in the leg i promise. ( An example for you to not let you be able to jump on that argument and twist it - You work in a car factory (your guild) and one day youll come up with an idea which reduces the time spend to put things together by say 20% - ofc you go ahead and contact your boss (your guildmates) and tell him the idea - get a super fat bonus on your paycheck by the end of the year and the change will improve the QOL in your company in the future. But would you go ahead and let your competitors (other guilds) know about that idea aswell? - i highly doubt it unless your literally braindead)

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12 minutes ago, Peel2g said:

its not a metaphor its an analogy. And No youre incorrect imo. You get to be taught the basics and you then figure out how to put the pieces you learned together yourself unless youre doing the simpliest of jobs ever, then you might have a point.

Theres a reason the outcry was so heavy on this feature and im glad the team took a step back from it. I dont mind it to be implemented btw but you have to give everyone the option to not partake in that and have the feature disabled. The ones who want to share can do so - but theres plenty of gamers who dont want it - period.

Cheers for you having the mindset off sharing inventions you have to everyone you know - you better dont do that in your job and let everyone arround you take credit for it. Youll shoot yourself in the leg i promise. ( An example for you to not let you be able to jump on that argument and twist it - You work in a car factory (your guild) and one day youll come up with an idea which reduces the time spend to put things together by say 20% - ofc you go ahead and contact your boss (your guildmates) and tell him the idea - get a super fat bonus on your paycheck by the end of the year and the change will improve the QOL in your company in the future. But would you go ahead and let your competitors (other guilds) know about that idea aswell? - i highly doubt it unless your literally braindead)

Fair enough.  That's the big reason why everyone is so opposed to the idea.  People have builds that give them an edge over other players and they don't want to lose an advantage.

The issue really comes down to people don't want to give up their advantage.  Either on high risk, or low risk.  They wanna keep being the top PVPer and the top DPS in raids without letting others see what makes them the best.

 

I think one of the problems Ascension has is making the game have a low barrier to entry where new players can actually compete against veterans.  At the end of the day, Ascension needs more population on both LS and Andorhal and part of the problem is making the game available to new players.  It has a hard time keeping new players, especially on high risk where they get farmed and quit because they can't compete either because of a lack of skill, or a lack of access to good builds.

They could join a guild of veterans and be taught a build, but then it leads to all new players needing to be in a guild of veterans to be viable.  

Whether build sharing is the solution to that, I don't know, but it is some sort of solution.

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22 minutes ago, Skray said:

Fair enough.  That's the big reason why everyone is so opposed to the idea.  People have builds that give them an edge over other players and they don't want to lose an advantage.

The issue really comes down to people don't want to give up their advantage.  Either on high risk, or low risk.  They wanna keep being the top PVPer and the top DPS in raids without letting others see what makes them the best.

 

I think one of the problems Ascension has is making the game have a low barrier to entry where new players can actually compete against veterans.  At the end of the day, Ascension needs more population on both LS and Andorhal and part of the problem is making the game available to new players.  It has a hard time keeping new players, especially on high risk where they get farmed and quit because they can't compete either because of a lack of skill, or a lack of access to good builds.

They could join a guild of veterans and be taught a build, but then it leads to all new players needing to be in a guild of veterans to be viable.  

Whether build sharing is the solution to that, I don't know, but it is some sort of solution.

Cool that weve come to an agreement!

 

I agree that entry barriers are there and Yes theyre a big Problem! But solving this issue shouldnt be in the players responsibility but rather the responsibility of the devs. There was plenty of solutions given by the playerbase/vets to come by these issues or at least lower the barriers, but they all went on deaf ears for whatever reasons. It just goes to Show that there is a huge disconnect between concerns made by the players and the guys in charge tackling those. 

 

It almost feels like that the egos are being hurt by those who are in charge and that they dont want to admit that sometimes the customer is right and knows better. Its fighting windmills at this point. Many have left by now due to the reason that they just would not be recognised and got hit regularly with the phrase " weve made huge success on player retention" or " our Data shows impressive amounts of new unique accounts made" when in reality the server hemorrhaged players throughout the past 6 months. Many small adjustments couldve been implemented without effort,  but they simply got overlooked. 

 

Simply put. Either the community Manager did a horrible Job in gathering peoples concerns or even he couldnt get past the ignorance coming from the higher-ups. Either way: things have to change drastically or the entire Project will devolve to a seasonal only private Server without a coreplayerbase to rely on.

 

This Post isnt meant to be rude allthough some might get offended by words.

 

Kaladin pls no downvoting it hurts muh feelz.

 

Gday 

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16 hours ago, Peel2g said:

Sorry to ruin your day But thats exactly how the real world is functioning. Do you really believe that a brandnew hired coworker of yours with 0 experience or expertise should get the same paycheck as you do while you hustling for that company for many years ? Thats such a millenial way of thinking. You should never get things served on a silverplate but rather work towards your Goals. If youre not willing to improve and increase your knowledge on your own and with your own time youre rightfully the sheep that gets slaughtered in a bg or open world. Because the exact thing will occur to you in the real world. 

 

Also the way to gather knowledge or get tipps and tricks from should come from the guild youll end up joining and not a random player youll Steal a build from but never interacted with to begin with. Thats straight up the worst way i can think of.

 

Btw the discussion is over since the feature wont be implemented. You should take my words tho and rethink your own mindset. Itll help you in the long run.

Booooooom mic drop.
This is how it should be.

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Yea too many cry babies on this server so this will be my last season.  I took a season off of POE and man i can't say how much i miss it after this ridiculous folding of the devs.  Those devs have to be pretty damn limber considering how far they are willing to bend over for the donors.  Poe is far better and does what ascension wants to do.  Devs are too afraid to shake up the environment because their "donors" say they will quit.  Secondly these same donors bitch about specs that take longer than 20 seconds to kill so they get that stuff nerfed all while keeping their private specs.  Last I heard a meta should be a rock, paper, scissors format.  Hell, I'm surprised these babies haven't asked for a t3 vendor because you know gotta make the kids happy.  Anyway tis the life of a server the community ruins it eventually and it dies...

farewell,

the slayer of pugs

Edited by rtsands45

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Now that they are not implementing the feature it's kind of what ever at this point. It doesn't change the fact that people who horde builds are undoubtedly part of the problem concerning player retention and garnering new players. When somebody states "I've spent thousands of gold and countless hours on my builds" it's not hard to fathom just how absurd the barrier has become. It's a numbers game that boils down to optimized meta, one that often requires "thousands of gold and hours"; when you have the top players who have been here for years hiding their builds, good luck engaging new players for longer than a few weeks at max level, especially on the hardcore server. When you design features that produce such drastic inequity, promoting massive time sinks that yield OP results, the end result will always lean towards a minuscule population.

Edited by Spirit

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On 2/6/2019 at 2:22 PM, rtsands45 said:

Yea too many cry babies on this server so this will be my last season.  I took a season off of POE and man i can't say how much i miss it after this ridiculous folding of the devs.  Those devs have to be pretty damn limber considering how far they are willing to bend over for the donors.  Poe is far better and does what ascension wants to do.  Devs are too afraid to shake up the environment because their "donors" say they will quit.  Secondly these same donors bitch about specs that take longer than 20 seconds to kill so they get that stuff nerfed all while keeping their private specs.  Last I heard a meta should be a rock, paper, scissors format.  Hell, I'm surprised these babies haven't asked for a t3 vendor because you know gotta make the kids happy.  Anyway tis the life of a server the community ruins it eventually and it dies...

farewell,

the slayer of pugs

POE?

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16 minutes ago, Spirit said:

I was top DPS on LS in the server first BWL guild and had by far the most bursty insane damage TG pvp build on our server. I gave all that shit out at all times except for when the other shit raiding guild - can't remember the name - wanted them because well, they were absolute rejects. But any time a new player came to me for help I'd literally link my build and slight variations for them and say "have fun" because well, anyone who hordes a build is an absolute cuck pussy bitch. I quit right before they had some serious AIDS meta changes in the works via nerfing burst builds because I could see where the garbage meta was headed - tanky unkillable flag carrier style mess.

That being said, I come back to the forums from time to time to check up on stuff and I am absolutely delighted they finally are making this change. The fact that it's making cucks squirm is only icing on the cake.

I like how you say you like this feature but in reality brought up more reasons against the implementation

 

P.S: making a TG build aint hard my man. 

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Guys inspecting builds only removes the step of them asking someone for help on their own builds.... But i agree they should stay hidden.

i have had a ball testing builds and tweaking them. i WISH IT WAS CHEAPER TO TWEAK A SINGLE SKILL THOUGHT!> god damn im broke trying to tweak my build. 100g everytime i fuck up is annoying.

 

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@rtsands45
Ya "donors" pay there wages and give them a reason to work on the game for us, maybe you should of showed some support and donated your self.
I would imagine there IQ is higher than what yours is and as a business would respect the wishes of the majority of their customers, seemed like 90%+ was against.
That said, its was never proven these changes was ever planned, it was just different scripts being ran on PTR or so they claim at least.

@Spirit
Lol by reading your post i would of been able to guess you played TG.
I too was playing back when you was, and i know TG was unquestionably overpowered then, basically you quit because your braindead build got a justified nerf.
You agree with build inspection because you was happy to hand out a TG build ? hardly a deal breaker in the debate, a debate that is now irrelevant. 

Edited by Ashsj1992

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The biggest selling point is Classless and Create unique builds. This new inspect feature takes away just that.
I think Ascension should ask for some PVP / PVE builds to put on their webpage. That way players quicky can go look up builds. 
Now i´not saying you should offer 200 builds but a hand full pve and pvp builds should be enough if you pick meta build.

It takes time to learn theroycrafting and atm i think it´s very harsh on new players. So i would like to suggest we go back to how it was on Sargaras / Andorhal in the day.
thats why i suggest this:
Place a book in Stormwind / Org. 
Make both talent / ability Reset cost zero gold  ONLY at that book.
Place a alter in Sw / Org were it has all GREY Re´s for free!! (Grey is below white) So everyone can test stuff for free and everyone can be able to create next meta. (white RE´s is fine)

I remember my own first build. A dual wield fire Boomkin. It was a crappy build and could not do anything. But back then i had a rest for free and was able to try again.
Then i saw a build i liked and i tried to make my own version and with time it became better.
My point is New players sucks in the beginning and should not have those harsh things to deal with.

So instead of destroying what makes this server ´´classless and unique´´ we should help new players in other ways. That´s my view.

 

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On 2/8/2019 at 10:04 PM, Tryant said:

The biggest selling point is Classless and Create unique builds. This new inspect feature takes away just that.
 

No it doesn't, the new feature literally doesn't take away from anyone's ability to create unique builds. In fact it gives more options by allowing others to make their own or emulate somebody else's and even make tweaks if they wanted.

 

On 2/8/2019 at 10:04 PM, Tryant said:

I think Ascension should ask for some PVP / PVE builds to put on their webpage. That way players quicky can go look up builds. 
Now i´not saying you should offer 200 builds but a hand full pve and pvp builds should be enough if you pick meta build.

 

I agree 100%.

 

On 2/8/2019 at 10:04 PM, Tryant said:

It takes time to learn theroycrafting and atm i think it´s very harsh on new players. So i would like to suggest we go back to how it was on Sargaras / Andorhal in the day.
thats why i suggest this:
Place a book in Stormwind / Org. 
Make both talent / ability Reset cost zero gold  ONLY at that book.
Place a alter in Sw / Org were it has all GREY Re´s for free!! (Grey is below white) So everyone can test stuff for free and everyone can be able to create next meta. (white RE´s is fine)

 

Also agree here, I'd add increasing the rate at which epics drop off mobs as well.

 

On 2/8/2019 at 10:04 PM, Tryant said:

I remember my own first build. A dual wield fire Boomkin. It was a crappy build and could not do anything. But back then i had a rest for free and was able to try again.
Then i saw a build i liked and i tried to make my own version and with time it became better.
My point is New players sucks in the beginning and should not have those harsh things to deal with.

So instead of destroying what makes this server ´´classless and unique´´ we should help new players in other ways. That´s my view.

 

I both agree and disagree. Now that they are not implementing the feature it's kind of what ever at this point. It doesn't change the fact that people who horde builds are undoubtedly part of the problem concerning player retention and garnering new players. When somebody states "I've spent thousands of gold and countless hours on my builds" it's not hard to fathom just how absurd the barrier has become. It's a numbers game that boils down to optimized meta, one that often requires "thousands of gold and hours"; when you have the top players who have been here for years hiding their builds, good luck engaging new players for longer than a few weeks at max level, especially on the hardcore server. When you design features that produce such drastic inequity, promoting massive time sinks that yield OP results, the end result will always lean towards a minuscule population.

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On 2/5/2019 at 8:43 AM, rtsands45 said:

Yea, I am all for the inspecting of players it brings brand new players up to other players levels.  When players are like hey I spent 400 hours making this build and perfecting it, think of the brand new player with 0 hours of experience.  They don't know how talent interactions work, nor do they know the most value to TP spent.  A new player gets 3 free respecs, which i know my first toon i was down to 1 respec when I hit 60, and I didn't even know where to farm.  You players already have your BiS spec playing against players who are literally equivalent to lvl 30 mobs.  They don't have a chance a pvp, yet you don't want a challenge.  You are comparing people with 0 hours of experience on this realm to you who have 200+ hours and allowing players to make the leap in played hours only helps the server population.  

I will liken this to M:tG which is another game I enjoy.  I would rather a new player copy a build on the internet to run a viable deck because it gets boring for me to beat this player over and over when they clearly have no chance at winning.  If a player has no chance of winning a game I have seen them quit, because losing all the time is no fun for them.  We allow players to play with proxies so that we can use our old cards in the playgroup and they don't have to spend $200 min per card just to make their decks competitive to ours.  I would rather have a competitive environment than zero competition and rolling people every time we met up.

This change as a good thing.  We can see devs properly balance talents/specs rather than just throwing a dart at a dartboard of talents to see if any changes have a difference in the current meta. 

Finally, people are making such ridiculous assumptions that being able to inspect will kill the server.  Do we have any proof that this idea from other servers like this caused it to fail, or are these people just pulling these ideas that it will kill the server out of thin air.  A competitive PVP environment should actually force people to rethink their builds and make tweaks.

Guys change is coming, that is life.  Change may not always feel nice, but if it can help draw in new players to have a larger player pool, I am all for it.  For all of you people saying you will quit, farewell... for a couple months.  You will come back, you always come back.

i'm sorry but why do old player have to be dicked over just because new players don't want to put in the world and effort into making builds, new players are also more likely to leave if they just copy a build because they end up putting no real time or effort into making their own build. people like you are the reason ascension is dieing bit time.

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