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Tekkies

Inspecting builds.

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Hey guys,

I just want to ask, whatever happened to the promised "build your own unique character."  Have you guys forgotten about that? You said Project Ascension was about choosing YOUR own favourite skills, not the exact same skills as everyone else, and you even advertise this in the beginning of EVERY single YouTube video and trailer you post, this will be dead.

Are you going to remove this trailer now? Or perhaps better yet, change it to "COPY THE BEST SPEC OF THE WEEK", "CLAIM IT AS YOUR OWN", "SAY YOU MADE IT BUT EVERY SINGLE OTHER PERSON IS USING IT TOO!" 

I can understand the reasoning, well I can try to, I imagine it's in terms of player retention, so they have actual functioning builds. But why can't you just make actually useful PvP builds like you did with the PvE ones? I've said myself that I would be happy to share my own builds for you to use to give to new players, but I was greeted with little interest, and was told that I would have to make them myself and put in the effort myself before they were even considered...

I cannot tell you not to implement this change, but I can ask on behalf of the playerbase, no one wants this change, not even the new players. How long do you think they will enjoy playing the specialisation they stole but didn't actually want to play? How long do you think people can keep copying and pasting until the gameplay becomes stale? 

I'm asking as a long-term player of Ascension, and on behalf of my own guild and countless other players, please reconsider removing the one thing that makes your server unique.

 

Edit: some of the most fun I've had is sitting in a call for 3 hours with two friends theory crafting the most ridiculous but good build ever, and that ability has been taken away from me, by the fact someone can come along, inspect me and take all that work.

Edited by Tekkies

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Sad. Devs aint read the Forum annymore, last time they did they listened to feedback and changed ptr to it, so they decidet "if we dont read it, we dont need to response to it!"

GENIUS !

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1 hour ago, Vedartha said:

Sad. Devs aint read the Forum annymore, last time they did they listened to feedback and changed ptr to it, so they decidet "if we dont read it, we dont need to response to it!"

GENIUS !

I'm sure they do still read it. I'm not here to slate the GMs, just to put my point across.

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I’ve played on and off for a year and my homescreen is full of notes with build links, stat calculations and potential REs. I’ve spent hours theorycrafting my own builds knowing that they are unique. Now that will be gone.

You could’ve released core talents and spells for meta builds, but this, this is unacceptable.

I gladly share my build, discuss, help and theorycraft with anyone asking about my build but that doesn’t mean I want people to inspect and copy my build. I want the social aspect of asking someone.

I also respect people that doesn’t share their build when I ask them to. I’ve asked people and even if they didn’t share their exact build they still helped me develop something similair. Alot of them still shared info about what is better and what is worse, I loved that.

Asking is easy to do and a social aspect unique for Ascension. A build that you made yourself is yours and the choice to share it should be yours. Don’t ruin this. 

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just gonna leave this small guildchat extract here ... too lazy to rewrite it and it sums up what i think about it, roughly

i6zkzWn.png

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If this build Inspection goes live, i'm done for good.
Shouldn't even have to put into words how ******* retarded this is. 

Edited by Ashsj1992

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Ascension is the only game I have been playing for the last 2 years, it had its ups and downs, but I never stopped playing.

 

Last winter when like more or less 10 People were on max? still playing every day

Nerfing builds/REs and setting my Progress to 0? No Problem, I'll find some new build

 

But THIS is a change I just cant cope with. Not only does that fuck over every one who likes to theorycraft, imo its also a really bad idea for new players. What happend to "we are not making respecs free or cheaper so people invest time and effort in their builds to improve them. Othervise they are going to test some build and just respec if its not good" ???

 

 Whats better? If u give a hungry man a fish to eat, or if u teach him how to fish? Every day people ask me about builds and I help them and get them on the right track, they understand the rota, why certain talents are needed and why certain things work better than others. Eventually they will improve and get their own flavor to the build and get attached to ther chars/builds.

On the other hand we have a fresh new 60 that sees a crazy geared Player, copies their spec without knowing the background of the spec. Maybe its a non gear/non RE/non-Rota dependant spec and it could work, but most of the times he will be massively disapointed.

I know that ascension can be difficult for new players, i personally brought many friends here and had to explain them a lot of the stuff from the server, but giving them a spreadsheet for the best specs in game isnt the right way imo.

 

Im spending at least 75% of my gold and time in Ascension for respecs and theroycrafting, cause I like to find non meta vaible builds. Why should I continue doing so if you take away the main selling point of the server: creating an unique individual character? I know not everyone thinks that way, some people just wanne nuke others in bg and have fun, that fine too, these players can BUY builds if they dont feel like putting effort in creating a build.

And FYI I have never ever refused to help some new player with their builds when they asked me and neither have I ever charged gold for any of this help or spec I shared. But at the end oft he day it was MY decision to share the build and how much of the build I wannted to share.

All in all I can say if this will be implemented, and there is no way to avoid people seeing your main spec (e.g. they can only see current spec) I will 100% leave the server.

And even if u can hide your main spec, that means I wont ever be joining pugs or dung browser outside of the guild. Not because my build is extreamly good or precious, but beacuse its MY build that i put effort and time into. Anybody want that build or at least some hints? Have the decency to ask me, and not rightclick my profile pic to get the same results I did after spending 1000s of gold and hours of time.

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I personally think this might be the final nail in the coffin for me, these past few months the dev's have showed very little care for many topics of late, now they decide to go against what as one of the core aspects of the server to have a unique build.

Now instead of players saying "O shit it's (player name)" it's now "O shit it's a (Build name)"  you've completely removed any kind of recognition that a player can get if they make a unique and powerful build, not only that but it's a spit in the face for all players who's poured thousands of hours into your sever (I've got over 100 days player with my main and alts combined, not to mention ptr time). You have actually made more like retail now where instead of people trying builds out for them selves they're just going to find someone who does a ton of damage and copy their spec.

You say this is for player retention but honestly these changes you've made sense starting late November of last year has caused more players to leave then any gain. You hide behind bloodscalp saying it's doing fine but ignore that fact that many of the guilds that have been here sense day one or close to it are either gone or are close to it. yet you just keep ignoring it, not even giving us an answer on the forums. Maybe you'll wake up when ascension ends up having to have all the players join one guild just to do 10 mans and 25 mans.

TLDR: You're actually killing creativity with these changes and causing long term players to leave.

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I couldn't have said better than SirGank, DisplayName, Peel2g, Tekkies, Ashsj1992 and nasmi how I feel about the upcoming changes to builds display.

I might be playing on Ascension only since last saturday, but I managed to do a build that fits perfect to me by theoricrafting, experimenting spells and mechanics and doing quite a lot of resets.

Now. I know some players don't find this change disturbing at all, some are doing great with it because they wish to have the same build as the top players. But others, like us in this topic disagree with that because we want to keep the infiinite creativity that Ascension system offers, and the unique personal playstyle it gives. In my opinion, if you are a player and want to improve your character's efficiency or fun, you just open the Ascension spellbook and talent trees, take a paper sheet and a calculator and you just read the hundred tooltips and try to find the perfect combination of spells depending on what YOU WANT to do not what OTHERS do. As for me, I have two-three sheets of paper full of notes, percentages, and various numbers and even notes about spell effectiveness in special in-game cases.

If you still want to apply those horrible changes, please, at least allow people to hide their build (do a "Show/hide talents" option in-game just like you show/hide your helmet)...but anyway, you only need a couple of players running around with an overpowered build and showing it and that's it, just like a disease it will spread around between players and the only way you'ill be able to counter anything against those builds will be having the same or another broken one. 3-4 main builds will be dominating all the other ones and you won't be considered as viable unless you have one of those builds.

You are going to kill the server.

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My opinion is that build creation is one of the key aspects of ascension. For me, the journey on creating, testing and understanding builds is as much fun as actually playing them in PvP or PvE. Introducing a feature to inspect builds will ultimately damage one of the main reasons people play here. Giving players the opportunity to take shortcuts for instant gratification is usually a poor sustainable business model.

 

I would like to suggest an alternative to inspecting builds. What about posting a weekly or monthly top 10 chosen abilities/talents/RE's instead of allowing players to inspect builds. You could even categorize them by type of class (for example: spellcaster, melee etc). This way you can point in the right direction and inspire players to create their own build, while not hurting the build creation experience.

Edited by Hers

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Arguably one of the additions/features that should either have been in from the start or left out, not a middle-thing, kinda like how it also went about the RE changes how reforging started binding to you, how legendaries automatically made an item soulbound etc. Think Diablo 3/PoE here where you can just inspect someone. You might have an idea of how somebody plays, but no realistic overview

But again, this is one of the quirky gimmicks you see on the PTR. There are lua scripts that run through there that may never see the daylight on live, if anything. Hell, the enchant indicator is there too, and that's not exactly live yet, is it? Because it's still broke and it's not finalized.

As much as Daggerspine is a public test realm, it is also a peek into a developer playground. It has a different world configuration, different lua, etc. Many things are potentially, and sometimes remain, undocumented by the team.

The underlying philosophy behind a possible inspect option may be that instead of shitting countless hours into figuring out how to reduce the gap going through individual talents and abilities, they instead just gave players entrance to delve straight into it rather than leaving them unknowing.

There are still dumb things that are not supposed to interact with each other one way or another in the first place, and that might be one aspect where inspecting is not a terrible feature at all.

 

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I wouldn't exactly toss it under the bus completely, certainly helps with new players not sure what they are doing, but it could have been done in an way that doesn't turn players into lazy screenshoters. Like idk...Make runes and orbs much faster to obtain finaly so that respecing doesn't feel like a weekly chore to find out its under performing?

Keep in mind you may be able to inspect someone's build, but can you reliably utilize it in combat? Agility on the keyboard is necesary, especialy in pvp, timing and proper execution where a miss calculated cooldown could mean your death and possible gear loss (LS).

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10 hours ago, Soklava45 said:

I wouldn't exactly toss it under the bus completely, certainly helps with new players not sure what they are doing, but it could have been done in an way that doesn't turn players into lazy screenshoters. Like idk...Make runes and orbs much faster to obtain finaly so that respecing doesn't feel like a weekly chore to find out its under performing?

Keep in mind you may be able to inspect someone's build, but can you reliably utilize it in combat? Agility on the keyboard is necesary, especialy in pvp, timing and proper execution where a miss calculated cooldown could mean your death and possible gear loss (LS).

Most builds aren't so complex that they can't be figured out in a few hours or hell a lot less. point is that players who've put thousands of hours making builds because they want a unique build that no one else thought of or knows how to copy/make are getting fucked hard here. now you'll see players copying that person's build and claiming it as their own with out the permission of the original builder. it's a complete dick move to take away the right of the maker to give out his build but not only that it also lessens the social aspect of build making as now people aren't going to collaborate as much as they can just easily copy builds.

 

Also I love how it's been a few days now and the dev's haven't made a single reply to this at all. shows how often they read the forms. Still waiting on that qa/stateofascension video.

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I've already quit playing regardless, as have a large percentage of my guild, it's a shame.

I think this shows just how little they care about their veterans, and they are hungry for some new players who will bring more income to the server. Rather sad honestly.

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Guest rando1234

Build creation is a major thing that brought me to this server. It was hard at first, but I made it to 60. Did I use a premade build, no, I adapted a build I saw someone else using and thought it was cool, but since I didn't know exactly what it was, I had to make it my own and just do my best to get it going.

I probably could have asked that person for help with my build, but I didn't because that's half the point of custom, it's mostly yours.

With the inspect option, people wont ask as many questions, they won't need to know, why ____ is better than ____, they will just see this op player is using these spells/talents and copy it. It removes an aspect of learning from the game. I can't tell you how many people I've seen say that this is their first delve into WoW, we want them to learn, not just borrow.

We will probably also see less people online. I know a ton of people that just sit in town waiting for bg pops, but if there is a risk someone is going to steal their build entirely they will hide away in some unknown corner of the world, or log out when they don't want to be seen.

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One of the greatest components an MMO brings - is interaction with other players. I remember when DK's first came out and all of our guild on Warsong was testing stuff, discussing options and together finding the best tank/dps builds. That was a great experience for me.

On ascension - that same experience is on steroids) I bet everyones guild chat every now and then is filled with discussion and suggestions, it makes you think and learn stuff, and become better.
I had never PVE'd until ascension - and you have no idea how much i've learned from other players.

And, of course, a simple "right click => inspect build" would ruin all of that.

 

14 hours ago, SirGank said:

Also I love how it's been a few days now and the dev's haven't made a single reply to this at all. shows how often they read the forms. Still waiting on that qa/stateofascension video.

I have made a very dissapointing observation. There are no replies. Just take a look at discussion and suggestion areas. For example - RE master thread - has five pages of content, not a single "yeah that's good we like it, and that's bad we don't like it". There's a very rare reply on some "weird" subject like "portable vendors"....

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4 hours ago, Hysteria said:

I have made a very dissapointing observation. There are no replies. Just take a look at discussion and suggestion areas. For example - RE master thread - has five pages of content, not a single "yeah that's good we like it, and that's bad we don't like it". There's a very rare reply on some "weird" subject like "portable vendors"....

 

We are reading every single post and thread, often more than once. In this case, this wasn't a feature we planned for any imminent patch. It was just discovered as a remnant on the PTR and caused a lot of commotion. A few developers/team members spoke out-of-turn and caused the commotion.

On 2/2/2019 at 1:07 AM, Soklava45 said:

Make runes and orbs much faster to obtain finaly so that respecing doesn't feel like a weekly chore to find out its under performing?

That was definitely our gameplan with all the mystic changes to speed things along. We're looking at orb rates exponentially higher for players now than a couple months ago.

 

We do not currently have any plans to release build inspect. It wasn't even a finished system when it debuted on PTR. It has a feature to prevent your build from displaying to other players in its current revision. Per current revision, you will be able to choose.

 

edit: We'll also be open up some new modes of communication soon to prevent something like this from happening in the future, more on that in the next few days.

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For that decision i have only 1 word to say!!

 

Thank you!

 

Greetz 

Edited by Peel2g
Typo

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26 minutes ago, Solstice said:

 

We are reading every single post and thread, often more than once. In this case, this wasn't a feature we planned for any imminent patch. It was just discovered as a remnant on the PTR and caused a lot of commotion. A few developers/team members spoke out-of-turn and caused the commotion.

That was definitely our gameplan with all the mystic changes to speed things along. We're looking at orb rates exponentially higher for players now than a couple months ago.

 

We do not currently have any plans to release build inspect. It wasn't even a finished system when it debuted on PTR. It has a feature to prevent your build from displaying to other players in its current revision. Per current revision, you will be able to choose.

 

edit: We'll also be open up some new modes of communication soon to prevent something like this from happening in the future, more on that in the next few days.

Thank you.

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Guest metaplayer

wahhh wahhh wahhhh someone will copy my build cry cry cry

 

 

 

 

 

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Hello,

First, I want to thank you Dutch for your reply on this topic. I might have an idea about how to help new players:

Since most of the veterans and players who have been playing level 60 content for quite a long time already have a clear idea of their ideal build, mainly players who are still learning/trying different mechanics of the gameplay use talent/spell resets. So how about lowering the cost of resets? It would allow people to test more builds, and learn more about the bindings between spells and talents. :p

 

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Yea, I am all for the inspecting of players it brings brand new players up to other players levels.  When players are like hey I spent 400 hours making this build and perfecting it, think of the brand new player with 0 hours of experience.  They don't know how talent interactions work, nor do they know the most value to TP spent.  A new player gets 3 free respecs, which i know my first toon i was down to 1 respec when I hit 60, and I didn't even know where to farm.  You players already have your BiS spec playing against players who are literally equivalent to lvl 30 mobs.  They don't have a chance a pvp, yet you don't want a challenge.  You are comparing people with 0 hours of experience on this realm to you who have 200+ hours and allowing players to make the leap in played hours only helps the server population.  

I will liken this to M:tG which is another game I enjoy.  I would rather a new player copy a build on the internet to run a viable deck because it gets boring for me to beat this player over and over when they clearly have no chance at winning.  If a player has no chance of winning a game I have seen them quit, because losing all the time is no fun for them.  We allow players to play with proxies so that we can use our old cards in the playgroup and they don't have to spend $200 min per card just to make their decks competitive to ours.  I would rather have a competitive environment than zero competition and rolling people every time we met up.

This change as a good thing.  We can see devs properly balance talents/specs rather than just throwing a dart at a dartboard of talents to see if any changes have a difference in the current meta. 

Finally, people are making such ridiculous assumptions that being able to inspect will kill the server.  Do we have any proof that this idea from other servers like this caused it to fail, or are these people just pulling these ideas that it will kill the server out of thin air.  A competitive PVP environment should actually force people to rethink their builds and make tweaks.

Guys change is coming, that is life.  Change may not always feel nice, but if it can help draw in new players to have a larger player pool, I am all for it.  For all of you people saying you will quit, farewell... for a couple months.  You will come back, you always come back.

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6 hours ago, Anterac said:

So how about lowering the cost of resets? It would allow people to test more builds, and learn more about the bindings between spells and talents. 😛

This was already done. Drastically.

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3 hours ago, rtsands45 said:

Yea, I am all for the inspecting of players it brings brand new players up to other players levels.  When players are like hey I spent 400 hours making this build and perfecting it, think of the brand new player with 0 hours of experience.  They don't know how talent interactions work, nor do they know the most value to TP spent.  A new player gets 3 free respecs, which i know my first toon i was down to 1 respec when I hit 60, and I didn't even know where to farm.  You players already have your BiS spec playing against players who are literally equivalent to lvl 30 mobs.  They don't have a chance a pvp, yet you don't want a challenge.  You are comparing people with 0 hours of experience on this realm to you who have 200+ hours and allowing players to make the leap in played hours only helps the server population.  

I will liken this to M:tG which is another game I enjoy.  I would rather a new player copy a build on the internet to run a viable deck because it gets boring for me to beat this player over and over when they clearly have no chance at winning.  If a player has no chance of winning a game I have seen them quit, because losing all the time is no fun for them.  We allow players to play with proxies so that we can use our old cards in the playgroup and they don't have to spend $200 min per card just to make their decks competitive to ours.  I would rather have a competitive environment than zero competition and rolling people every time we met up.

This change as a good thing.  We can see devs properly balance talents/specs rather than just throwing a dart at a dartboard of talents to see if any changes have a difference in the current meta. 

Finally, people are making such ridiculous assumptions that being able to inspect will kill the server.  Do we have any proof that this idea from other servers like this caused it to fail, or are these people just pulling these ideas that it will kill the server out of thin air.  A competitive PVP environment should actually force people to rethink their builds and make tweaks.

Guys change is coming, that is life.  Change may not always feel nice, but if it can help draw in new players to have a larger player pool, I am all for it.  For all of you people saying you will quit, farewell... for a couple months.  You will come back, you always come back.

Sorry to ruin your day But thats exactly how the real world is functioning. Do you really believe that a brandnew hired coworker of yours with 0 experience or expertise should get the same paycheck as you do while you hustling for that company for many years ? Thats such a millenial way of thinking. You should never get things served on a silverplate but rather work towards your Goals. If youre not willing to improve and increase your knowledge on your own and with your own time youre rightfully the sheep that gets slaughtered in a bg or open world. Because the exact thing will occur to you in the real world. 

 

Also the way to gather knowledge or get tipps and tricks from should come from the guild youll end up joining and not a random player youll Steal a build from but never interacted with to begin with. Thats straight up the worst way i can think of.

 

Btw the discussion is over since the feature wont be implemented. You should take my words tho and rethink your own mindset. Itll help you in the long run.

 

Gday 

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