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Xronize

Concerns about Hunter in general

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Hello, I've been playing project ascension since the start off sargeras, most of my time here I've spent on playing as a hunter. Few things I've really noticed here concerning the balance of hunter is that, we only get nerfs, nerfs after nerfs and small buffs here and there. Now i'm speaking mostly on my experience as a hunter in PVP, but even in PVE we can't really compare to other "meta" dps.

After the recent changes before bloodscalp and in bloodscalp. I feel like hunters have finally hit the rockbottom. These changes are reduced damage on players, but these numbers aren't just slight nerf instead its really big numbers like 20% 15% kinda thing. Yes I understand that these nerfs happened to PVP because of you guys buffing the damage and scaling to these hunter abilities and might think that the buffs makes up for it, let me say this. It doesn't.

By buffing the scaling does not make up for the huge damage reduce that we have on pvp. We hunters, we kinda lack the high amount of AP compared to other specs. Our AP mostly comes from buffs like rockbiter and blessing of might. We get 1 RAP from 1 agility, compared to wotlk where you get 2 rap per agility, yes I know that this is classless and cannot be compared to wotlk.

I know that hunters have been getting stealth nerfed here and there, with explosive shot not proccing 3 times anymore and instant poison proc chance is lowered, and these changes have also been huge for us hunters.

Now let's talk Chimera shot, which is super duper weak I feel as a 10 seconds cd. I have 60% damage increase on Chimera shot by using the random enchants 30% from that and 30% from talents. I have 1,5k RAP, and at most. My chimera shot crits for measly 500-700 and even less on tankier people. Yes we got quick damage with auto shot and other things. But these things just hits so low compared to other spells. I can pickup arcane barrage without any sp as a hunter and it hits almost better than most of my hunter abilities and arcane barrage has 3 seconds cd.

Yes, we also have 41 yards of range, but once you get to us it's literally gameover. We can't survive the burst a melee does in 1 charge. We don't have as much CC and sustain that a caster would have. We can't do any bursts without bestial wrath and this abomination called power word shield, i'm not gonna talk about that.

Hunters also have to stand still or stutterwalk to get the auto shot which makes kiting harder since melee has 3 gap closers and we have 2 escapes. Especially with warbringer removing movement impairment effects now.

Also with the random enchants changes that happened recently to Deadly brew and Pursuit of justice, this has further made hunter a weaker option especially when hunter is talent heavy.

Last but not least, Pet hunters were strong at some point which was the only viable hunter that had high amounts of burst but after the nerfs to most pet abilities doing 20% less damage to players and taking off 10% damage for pets in talents. This had also gone to the dumpster after these changes

Thanks for reading.

 

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i agree that hunter is underpowered atm. But i rather have them nerf Tank´s and sustain casters. And give some sort of cd to all survival cd´s instead of being able to run all of them and some even twice.  Maybe make hunter abilites less AE and TE heavy could end up being enough. 

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Maybe you're just specing wrong? I'm easily 4.5k dps on battleguard satura with a shot hunter build.

Edited by lewtorz

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2 hours ago, Xronize said:

We get 1 RAP from 1 agility, compared to wotlk where you get 2 rap per agility

Other way around though; It used to be 2:1 here, but is now 1:1 as it should be on 3.3.5a.

Hunters gained the ability to benefit their attack power from Intellect/Stamina in Wrath, and red gems provided twice as much attack power as agility, giving an option of choice.

Edited by Gubbyascension

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What even...

 

Hunters are currently very strong in PvE on AQ40 (live servers). 

 

With casters receiving spell power nerfs + melees receiving less AP through savage combat / armored to the teeth nerfs + reduction of % stats RE and maximum stat allocation (which affect hunters too but at a lesser degrees than melees since hunter gear has more raw AP than stats) + 3 RE limits (also affect hunter builds, other than pet builds, less since they have a lot of REs they can use), hunters are barely touched pve-wise by the seasonal nerfs compared to other builds.

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I agree with mecar on this, shot hunter builds might only loose 10% of their damage at best compared to most melee loosing ~15%. Hybrids will loose around 25%, not sure about casters but from what i hear most are only loosing around 10% - 15% aswell.

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This is post was mostly made because of the state hunters are in pvp and wpvp, now i'm talking about my experience as a hunter in pvp in the realm bloodscalp.

Edited by Xronize

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I play hunter since day one on here. Yes we are very weak compared to other builds, mainly cause we have to spend the extra talent and ability on our attacks, not leaving us much room for other stuff. That and our damage is weak. Can literally pick up that paladin shield throw talent and be close to a fully talented arcane shot, that's 11 talents deep into buffing damage, and 3 re deep. Recently my build in bloodscalp as a hunter my main damage is that shield toss it's pretty bad. Not to mention it doubles as a 2nd silencing shot, and a consussive shot all for 2a/4t. where silence shot, and consussive plus a damage attack would cost you around more then 4a/1t, plus at least 3 globals to get them all off.

Edited by Dutchmaster

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He is saying that avengers shield does more damage compared to a fully talented arcane shot, not that hard to understand?

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what!? you can break avengers shield to do more then 7k damage in 1 hit? hard to believe considering the scaling is 7% sp and 7% ap.

Edited by lewtorz

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it's what, 70% in pvp?
Sure, cd's, fully buffed, using imp steady shot and RE's (sure, good idea for pvp...), every improvement to shot dmg, crit dmg, arcane shot. You could DEF hit for 7k...

... on a green geared target with no DR whatsoever.

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"Warchas" on LS is doing just fine with his hunter build if you ask me.
Although Hunter builds are not very flexible to craft, pretty much only 1 way to do it, which is an issue. 

Its important to note in PvP that if Hunter's Dps comes even close to melee dps, then they are already overpowered. 
The reason for this is the fact they have 41 yards with all instant casts.
There good overall damage has always been achieved in retail by constant uptime rather than burst.
The real issue is that Ascention is all about burst, if a build cannot take a health pool in 2-3 mostly 2 GCD's then its a **** build in my opinion. 

Until Ascensions PvP consist of more than 2-3 sometimes even 1 offensive GCD, then Hunter will either be underpower or overpower but never balanced. 
The issue is with PvP in general, not Hunters.

Edited by Ashsj1992

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once again, this is mostly for bloodscalp, most hunters in bg just gets free hits, no wonder they get good damage in damage meter

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His build is taking the average health pool in 3 GCD's Which is pretty standard.
Any build that has the power to deal good damage in a single GCD on a short CD should be viable in 1v1's

My build recommendation is this:

Stack Arcane Shot / Auto Shot Dmg which there is a ton of RE's and talents for
This 2k + Burst has a 6 to 3.3 (weapon) CD when you cannot make use of your build investments use CC/Def to stall the fight
Brake that CC with a Stun Silence that is not on the GCD such as Silencing shot + Intercept before attacking
Which can both have a 20 sec CD with Improved Intercept and can be chained x2 with Readiness + Heroic Fury.

I would run:

Readiness, Heroic Fury, Preparation (Resets)

Improved Gouge (7sec incap)
Freezing Trap (10 sec incap x2)
Scatter Shot (4 sec Disorient x2)
Silencing Shot + Intercept (20 sec CD x2)
Death Coil (Horror Dr)
Deterrence (x2)
Vanish (x2)
Ice Block (Free GCD)

A rotation example:

Stealth > Arcane Shot > Intercept + Silencing Shot > Aimed Shot > Gouge > Grounding Totem > PWS > Arcane Shot
> Death Coil > Viper String > Chimera Shot + Shadowmeld > Deterrence + Readiness > Cancelaura > Heroic Hury > Silencing Shot + Intercept >
Arcane Shot > Gouge > Riptide > Scatter Shot > Rejuvenation > Freezing Trap > Grounding Totem > Arcane Shot > Vanish > Aimed Shot > Deterrence 

As you can see the idea is to stall for time to increase your GCD value.

Any time your opponent can gain a GCD advantage on you is a time to use a Deterrence/Block/Vanish
Cancelaura to surprise them/prevent healing, into another def CD or CC .

Nurturing Instincts and Quick recovery can be useful as Healing should be used when stalling 
running no pet and Viper Sting instead of Serpent sting gives you have access too the CC you need.
Arcane Power/Unleashed Rage also effect some hunter abilities too with Wrath nerfed its a good choice for burst. 
Against sustain builds it pretty much a mana war, So if your opponent lacks in GCD value and you have better mana recovery you simply cannot lose. 

Finally, if you happen to vs a player who actually understands 1v1's then skill/prediction/CD exchange should be what dictates the fight the most
and certainly not a 10/15% dmg nerf, Assuming your build meets the 3 GCD Kill requirement, which doesn't have to be one after another. 

I believe Hunters are Viable in 1v1's just not the best and come under the skillful category
If there GCD value came close to a melee or even a caster they would be overpowered because of the 41 yd instant cast range. 
So you cannot simply exchange Dmg with a melee build and expect to win, this is balanced. 

Edited by Ashsj1992

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11 hours ago, Ashsj1992 said:

"Warchas" on LS is doing just fine with his hunter build if you ask me.

Okay allow me to clear this up.
Warchas made a nice BG build. It´s crap in wpvp / arena and after his burst is gone he is like a target dummy. It´s a bg build and he showcase it in bg´s nothing more.
I´m not saying anything negative about Warchas skill wise but a glass cannon build with highlights destroying undergeared players... Does not mean **Hunters are doing just fine**

5 hours ago, Ashsj1992 said:

My build recommendation is this:

Stack Arcane Shot / Auto Shot Dmg which there is a ton of RE's and talents for
This 2k + Burst has a 6 to 3.3 (weapon) CD when you cannot make use of your build investments use CC/Def to stall the fight
Brake that CC with a Stun Silence that is not on the GCD such as Silencing shot + Intercept before attacking
Which can both have a 20 sec CD with Improved Intercept and can be chained x2 with Readiness + Heroic Fury.

I would run:

Readiness, Heroic Fury, Preparation (Resets)

Improved Gouge (7sec incap)
Freezing Trap (10 sec incap x2)
Scatter Shot (4 sec Disorient x2)
Silencing Shot + Intercept (20 sec CD x2)
Death Coil (Horror Dr)
Deterrence (x2)
Vanish (x2)
Ice Block (Free GCD)

Ok please stop. Just from you last post i can conclude that either you are a Veteran who played long long long ago and havent logged back in OR you are a Andorhal player who just recently got the new balance patch.
What you are suggestion is SO SO SO bad and would never work in current or previous 3 meta´s. 
In this case you need to update your view of current state because what you are proposenig is so far out tbh.

5 hours ago, Ashsj1992 said:

I believe Hunters are Viable in 1v1's just not the best and come under the skillful category
If there GCD value came close to a melee or even a caster they would be overpowered because of the 41 yd instant cast range. 
So you cannot simply exchange Dmg with a melee build and expect to win, this is balanced. 

Yes but hunters are underproforming in pvp especilly in 1v1 aspect..... Only build that does worse is rogue builds. Both of them Viable but are you vs any opponont with brain you loose.
Both Rogue and Hunter builds spends to many TE / AE in core features for their builds and that´s why they end up struggeling vs builds that can pick 4 abilies and take buffs / defense / CC for rest.


Since the armor change happen on Bloodscalp hunters #1 dmg ability got nerfed super hard. (Auto shot) Since everyone now runs with decent amount of armor our attacks does noodle dmg.
i have 1830 Range Attack power run´s close to full glass cannon in talents yet i can´t even do 500 auto attack crits and my other core abilites are max 1k crits.
I tried Arcane shot + talentes + RE´s and it critted 1100 dmg.  Full build / talentes invested into 1 dmg ability and it does 1100. 
And this comes from top 2 best geared hunter on Seasonal. So compared to any other Glass cannon builds hunter dmg is noodle.

Now i´m not saying hunter dmg should recive a huge dmg buff because with our kiting that would be overpowered.
I rather see some changes to hunters sustain and dmg reduction because that is were Hunter problems lies imo.
And maybe a look at Hunter Abilites and reprice some of them. If buffed correctly this will makes hunters better in the pvp aspect and not touch the pve preformance since it´s my understanding they are doing quite well in PVE. 
 

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@Tryant

I used his build as an example because of the damage he is doing, his GCD value is pretty high
I have not suggested the rest of his build is a good 1v1 build, i am fully aware of that.

The ability set i suggested is broken as hell, don't say no it isn't and give no reason as to why.

"Readiness, Heroic Fury, Preparation (Resets)

Improved Gouge (7sec incap)
Freezing Trap (10 sec incap x2)
Scatter Shot (4 sec Disorient x2)
Silencing Shot + Intercept (20 sec CD x2)
Death Coil (Horror Dr)
Deterrence (x2)
Vanish (x2)
Ice Block (Free GCD)"
Grounding Totem


This set of abilities is vital for 1v1 and i can give you a 50 reasons as to why that is
But before i do that how about you give even one reason why its not?

Your right about the previous meta in one case, the 7-8 sec Gouge was not as reliable because of all the Agility Melee's
even still it was a great follow up CC but now that is no longer the case, 7 sec Gouge on 10 sec CD is truly broken in the current meta.
However everything else in that suggestion has always been broken, just because the "Meta" (A bunch of sheep copying what they see)

Did not use it let alone use it with skill,  does not mean it has not been overpowered. 

No, I have never stepped foot in Andorhal and have been here almost since the beginning.

Rogue builds are underpowered ? you mean Backstab/SS/Ambush
Mutilate can be one of the best in the 1v1 bracket and Bleeds/Eviscerate are very reasonable at least.

I tested an Arcane Shot build on LS 3 weeks ago and got 1.5k in PvP, however the RE bracket was x5
So that would take it down a bit on seasonal.  However i can still it see the reaching the 3 GCD kill requirement. 
As long as that minimum is reached then they are viable as long as they use control. 

Instead of just buffing the damage they should change Hunter to fit in more with Ascension PvP
Otherwise they will always underperform in one area and be broken as **** in another. 
Personally i would like see Aimed Shot have a Cast time and the use of Steady Shot in PvP 
With the damage increased to compensate, this can be an effective way to give them better GCD's with out Hunter's braking PvP again.
There should be benefits to taking a moment to line up a shot, Archery 101.

Edited by Ashsj1992

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On 2/4/2019 at 12:49 PM, Ashsj1992 said:

The ability set i suggested is broken as hell, don't say no it isn't and give no reason as to why.

"Readiness, Heroic Fury, Preparation (Resets)

Improved Gouge (7sec incap)
Freezing Trap (10 sec incap x2)
Scatter Shot (4 sec Disorient x2)
Silencing Shot + Intercept (20 sec CD x2)
Death Coil (Horror Dr)
Deterrence (x2)
Vanish (x2)
Ice Block (Free GCD)"
Grounding Totem

What about you show us this amazing hunter, instead of just talking then walk the walk and teach us. 
Who even are you ? A name would be good so we can asociate it with your ingame char.  

On 2/4/2019 at 12:49 PM, Ashsj1992 said:

Rogue builds are underpowered ? you mean Backstab/SS/Ambush
Mutilate can be one of the best in the 1v1 bracket and Bleeds/Eviscerate are very reasonable at least.

Once again this makes me belive you are nothing but a BG hero to state this. 
Both builds viabel in BG but never in 1v1. 

On 2/4/2019 at 12:49 PM, Ashsj1992 said:

I tested an Arcane Shot build on LS 3 weeks ago and got 1.5k in PvP, however the RE bracket was x5
So that would take it down a bit on seasonal.  However i can still it see the reaching the 3 GCD kill requirement. 
As long as that minimum is reached then they are viable as long as they use control. 

The new armor change nerfed Hunters so hard and you would NEVER get close to 3 GCD for killing a enemy NEVER.
I was in pretty much full BIS on seasonal and maybe 6 or 7 GCD could kill people but that burst you are talking about is non existing atm. 
Hunters are more of a intense dmg now with high dps but not rly any burst.
 

On 2/4/2019 at 12:49 PM, Ashsj1992 said:

Instead of just buffing the damage they should change Hunter to fit in more with Ascension PvP
Otherwise they will always underperform in one area and be broken as **** in another. 
Personally i would like see Aimed Shot have a Cast time and the use of Steady Shot in PvP 
With the damage increased to compensate, this can be an effective way to give them better GCD's with out Hunter's braking PvP again.
There should be benefits to taking a moment to line up a shot, Archery 101.

Buff survival and reduce price for core pvp talents.
Ok so you don´t have a clue about what you are talking about and i would suggest to try play hunter on Seasonal.
You are what´s wrong with balance because you don´t have a clue what you are talking about and keep stating certin builds are OP when they are not.


I hate to break this to you but: Hunters have NEVER been anything special in 1v1 Only hunter to ever do decent in pvp was Regis he played combination of range // melee hunter with maelstorm.
Now i´m not saying there havent been good hunters what i´m pointing out is that on Ascension they don´t have a chance because their key element get´s nullified very easily. 


Hunter´s are viabel yes and does require some skill to play but are pretty weak. 
Our dmg is fine (could do with a slightly buff) But our survival combined with our playstyle (41yards) is very bad and the balance should be around that.
If you played seasonal then please tell the hunters you think thats doing great there.
 

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@Tryant

You tell me i am wrong about everything yet you mostly back it up with no information
Why not just post "you are wrong" and leave, no difference really.

Those Utilities are not limited to a Hunter and should be used on most builds
I gave you an example of how some of them can be used, they can be used a number of ways. 
If you cannot see the value of the utility i have suggest then i have little faith in your PvP experience 
As for who i am, not sure that matters when debates should be concluded with logic/reason but if you must know i am only known on Pvppriest.

Mutilate is great in 1v1's The reason for this is because they have the largest pool of RE's to choose from
Out of the Rogue builds in question so the x3 Limit isn't too harsh.  Most players do not know how to craft a good Muti build in PvP,
that is why you may assume they are bad, for example they focus on energy regen instead of the GCD value of Muti while using CC to pool energy. 
They are also highly RE and gear dependent but can easily reach the 2-3 GCD kill requirement in the x3 RE limit.

"Ok so you don´t have a clue about what you are talking" Great input, learn how to debate.
Even if my suggestion to Aimed Shot and Steady Shot has flaws that i cannot see ?
it certainly has a clear purpose in mind and under any circumstance that i can see, does it deserve such as response from you, seems personal.

I also have never stated that hunter is OP why did you suggest that i did ? What i have been trying to explain here is,
they are viable at least and i gave one example as to how they can function in 1v1's this did not mean hunters should have no changes
I suggested Hunters need to change how they fit into Ascension PvP instead of just damage buffs and i gave a reason why.

Reaching the 3 GCD kill with a hunter at this stage is optimistic yes but i know for a fact it can be done in less than 6-7
I can now see why you don't see value in the utility.

Your GCD's might be (just an example with investment on AP & overall DPS):
Black Arrow + Auto Shot > Aimed Shot > Serpent sting > Chimera + Auto Shot > Arcane Shot

My suggestion (Full investment on Arcane Shot):
Arcane Shot + Auto Shot -> Arcane Shot + Auto Shot-> Arcane Shot + Auto Shot

Because of the utility this kind of rotation is possible, even still those 3 GCD's may not land the kill
but at least you would be in the right mind to speak for hunters in 1v1's in my opinion 
As you would have adjusted Hunters to Ascension PvP instead of playing it like its retail. 

Only a few Hunter Abilities are reduced by armor in fact the armor changes effect Melee a lot more than it does hunters.
So that is not the leading issue in regards to how they compete with melee at least. 

Edited by Ashsj1992

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10 hours ago, Ashsj1992 said:

Pvppriest

So a nobody.  Stick to healing plz.
You havent even experianced or jsut got the new armor patch yet you try to teach me.
All the good hunters from LS changed during seasonal because hunter nerf was to much and now there is ME and Peanut left. Rest changed because they lost to blue geared tanks, TG´s pretty much any casster with sustain
Only builds i even seen being able to reach 2-3 GCD kill is Squatbutt and Judgment builds. I know Mutilate could be made into a decent build but it never had the same dmg output as the other 2.

10 hours ago, Ashsj1992 said:

Only a few Hunter Abilities are reduced by armor in fact the armor changes effect Melee a lot more than it does hunters.
So that is not the leading issue in regards to how they compete with melee at least.

Yea you should think that but in reality melee´s only got slightly dmg drop
And yes normal Melee & Tg´s  are pretty much a fair challange vs hunters at this point
But in this Tank / Sustain caster meta Hunters / rouges are very far behind and vs good players you don´t really stand a chance.

I cba to do a large explanation because you would not even know what i was talking about since you havent tried the patch.
Come back in a few days and give a updated statement on hunters because you are so missguided by previous metas.

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Problem is that the recent changes on hunter and bloodscalp has affected us hunters really bad. After deadly brew was changed to 20 yards and explosive shot not proccing instant poison, these changes were fine but hurt us really hard, but compared to the changes that happened recently with the reduced dmg on players. Almost all ranged hunter abilities has dmg reduced vs players which is considerably alot considering that its only hunters that has their full kit reduced damage on players. I took up before that I had 60% increased chimera damage, which still only crits for 500-700 and maybe 1k on undergeared, considering chimera got 10 sec cooldown and still hits that low which shows that there is some problems with hunters atm

If we could use steady shot while moving, it would be a nice buff for pvp or use autoshot when players are close to u

Edited by Xronize

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@Tryant

As you have personally attacked me i shall defend myself.
After playing at a competitive level on retail for many years i have no desire to compete much in Ascension as i find the PvP here very lacking with little gratification. 
However in 1.1 years Theorycrafting on Ascension there was a single month that i competed with the community and yet you still know exactly who i am because of that.
During that month i played a Healing build which was soon after adopted as the top healing meta build on the server and the foundation of that build is still currently in first place.
Some nobody huh ?  The fact you felt the need to bring in my MMO social status into this, is desperate and meaningless.
As for healing, that is not what i have spend the most time theorycrafting on, I completed that fairly quickly, I have played and experimented on every build.

On LS i have a been using the x3 RE limit more recently to revisit builds after it was clear those changes would stick.
In 3 RE limit Muti was one of the builds that actually achieved the 2-3 GCD kill requirement easily
This does not take into count heavy mitigation or sustained healing, but like i said against sustained builds it should be a mana battle even for hunters.
Seems like most of your information is based on what all the other sheep at the farm are doing.

For the 3rd time, i have never stated that Hunters should not get changes,  Starting to feel like you just want someone to cry too about your build.
I have simply suggested a way in which hunters can be viable in 1v1's "viable" being a flexible word. 
Clearly you are using the master 1v1 hunter build and is unwilling to accept that a different approach to a linear Hunter build is possible. 
However if your feeling that confident, feel free to send me your build on discord for some judgement. 

@Xronize

I have to say, my more recent tests on Survival was disappointing.
The build focused investment on Explosive Shot and Lock and Load in a CC playstyle.
The PvP reduction on Explosive Shot is what made it underperform yes.
For this i think Lock and Load should also provide a decent damage buff to Explosive Shot/Arcane Shot
While the talent/RE Point of no Escape & Sniper Training should be buffed enough to have value and offer a change in playstyle for PvP.

Mobility and Instants casts is what makes Hunter hard to fit into PvP
This is why i feel Aimed Shot should function like Steady Shot and both should receive and heavy dmg buff to compensate.
This would give them the GCD value they lack compared to some meta builds, while also making it more skillful and engaging.
 

Edited by Ashsj1992

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3 hours ago, Ashsj1992 said:

As you have personally attacked me i shall defend myself.

Let´s get this post back on track.
I never said you did not wanted change to hunters.

But those changes you suggest simply don´t seem very usefull or good atm. 
Meta for hunters is stay on 37-41 yards and run. You can´t allow them uptime one you. Even 1 gcd looses you the fight in some cases ( cough Rend ticking for 670dmg )
So when i saw the things you suggested it´s just so out of line and would not fit into the playstyle at all.
Also for having all those changes you would need to give up pet and then hunter dmg become even worse and you would not be able to kill many things with noodle hits.
So i could quicky see you never tried played hunter this meta and that´s why i think you should give it some time before making judgment.
Also i´m not gonna give you my build i tested 8 variations of hunter on seasonal so far and only 2 of them have been viabel. Many of them had potential but ended up needing to many AE´s to work propper so i trashed them.

 

 

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@Tryant

Yes i could see Rend being an issue here.
I had played Arms way back before this meta and Rend was 45% of the builds damage then. 
I would try to run Naturalist T and Urgent Touch RE to try and compensate for dot damage, but dot/pet damage is a good counter to the stalling playstyle
Honestly with the nerf to Bestial Wrath and % damage of Serpent Sting I don't feel like it is worth giving up Disorients and Incaps for them
I would drop them in a heartbeat, the loss of pet and wrath really clears up the abilities available too, Arcane Power is a cheap way for some burst.
As i would agree the only way to get Hunter's GCD value to be viable is to invest everything into 1 ability then stall for time with CC
While making use of that time with healing/grounding.

This isn't right to have to go to such lengths in attempts to make Hunter work in 1v1's though.  
Anyone in RAP gear right now i would probably recommend the Savage Strikes core instead (Mongoose/Rap/Counter)
But without the Deadly Bite dot as the build would also need stalling with Incaps and Disorents.

Edited by Ashsj1992

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Project Ascension

Embark onto Azeroth like never before, as you create and play the hero of your dreams.

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