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Season 2 Balance Specific Changes

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1 minute ago, Skray said:

I really would urge you to just push these to the PTR before live.

These changes are huge for TG and hybrid, and Season 2 will not give the feedback needed for these.  It's just not feasible for someone to have to re-level and re-acquire their gear, AND the REs to properly test these.  I know that seasonal has accelerated progression for leveling and gear but it's just not a proper testing environment to reflect on live's current progression.

The PTR doesn't even need the vendors for orbs/runes/resets/etc.  just have it open and allow players to copy their existing characters over and you'll end up with much more valuable feedback.

I have to agree, simply relying on seasonal is not good enough. If you want us to post accurate feedback @itswicky then you need to give everyone equal opportunity to do so in the form of opening the PTR up to test these changes. Not everyone enjoys seasonal and not everyone enjoys high risk, so simply relying on seasonal for data collection is unacceptable.

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11 minutes ago, itswicky said:
16 minutes ago, omendog said:

you buffed Smite, increased spell haste from spell mastery, and left the vast majority of the burstiest specs untouched.

We also reduced the effectiveness of Searing Light RE, which should mean less holy damage overall, particularly PvP burst. 

From changelog:

  • Smite base damage and scaling increased by 5%.
  • Searing Light now increases the damage of Holy Fire, Smite, Exorcism, Penance, and Holy Nova by 2/3/4%, from 3/4/5%.

Now correct me if i'm wrong, but when you buff the base scaling you also buff the damage provided by Searing Light (talent).

So previously, a smite for 50 base damage with a 50% coefficient (not the real one, i know) cast by a player with 100 spell power, 5/5 Searing Light talents and 5/5 Searing Light REs would deal: 
50 base dmg + 50 dmg from spellpower = 100 dmg + 20% from talent and 20% from RE, which stack additively, so 100 + 40% = 140 damage.


After the change, the same calculation would look like this:
52.5 base dmg + 52.5 dmg from spellpower= 105 dmg + 20% from talent and 15% from RE which stack additively, so 105 + 35% = 141.75 damage.

That looks like a buff to me. Sure you're changing things to resilience and spellpower scaling and whatever, but I don't see how that adresses the fact that some builds are significantly burstier than others. 

 

19 minutes ago, itswicky said:
24 minutes ago, omendog said:

Nerfing Second Wind doesn't seem to accomplish that.

Second Wind is completely passive sustain that scales with health, which isn't something we like to see in PvP.

Just to clarify, do you think having a PvP meta in which some players allocate full agi or str while others allocate full stamina is a desirable thing? Do you think stat variety is good? If so, and if you agree with me that stamina-stacking seems very rare nowadays (especially compared with before), do you have any plans on how to make it more attractive? % health regen talents seem like the obvious answer to me.

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27 minutes ago, itswicky said:

Also, I understand many people will be upset with some of the changes since we are attempting to decrease the overall power level of players, which can certainly be unfun, but we hope this results in better game play experience in PvP overall. 

I also want to say that even though you may be upset, please try to refrain from name calling, derogatory remarks, or any off-topic rants. Derailing the conversation and resorting to any of the aforementioned tactics will not help to get your messaged received or voice heard. If you want the staff to hear what you have to say, keep it constructive, try to be succinct, and provide as much relevant information as you can. Thank you.

I'm okay with finetuning builds and making the overall scaling a bit lower, but this just isn't that. Sustain was in a pretty good state after agi healing nerfs. A huge nerf to every single sustain player (whatever variation it is) just seems completely out of place? People are not gonna want to make builds around sustain any longer with this change, it just seems like a huge overkill.

Sustain builds has a pretty big weakness. They need to go full agi or str to get some decent sustain going. This means they die within a very very short time if they are nuked down. In full BiS gear on LS I have 5,5k hp. A single killing spree is RIP for me. I simply cannot outsustain ANY build with good damage currently on live servers. I die in a few seconds to alot of builds.

I know this is seasonal and not live, but doesn't that just make even less sense then? People don't even come CLOSE to the same numbers that they do on live, so why on earth test it here? If scaling is an issue, this is probably the worst place to test this. Period.

Edited by Beastly

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Sooooo. These nerfs will lead to bigger nerfs in raids/dungeons so that it is possible to do them with the changes? I don't really care what happens pvp or on high risk, I just want to be able to do all raid content without feeling gimped after investing time, money, gold, orbs and so on. Having to redo my build is fine, don't mind a little theorycrafting, but having to re-RE my entire gear because of a nerf or massive change isn't cool. I imagine that some people here have lives and can't just spawn in orbs/runes/gold to get gear. Meaning it's going to take a lot of time for people who can't play 3-10 hours daily. Farming up stuff is a part of WoW, sure thing. But for people who use their precious time to get bis, to then have to go farm even more to change their gear, + for mats, is a huge requirement. 

 

You can't make a PvE softcore server a terrible experience because you want people to play high risk. It's just going to equate into a loss of players instead of an increase. If people aren't playing there, it's because it's not their cup of tea. Hurting the PvE would just mean that people quit instead.

It's like changing a menu from having a decent pepperoni pizza and a semi-good hamburger, to having a turd-pizza and still the same semi-good hamburger. People won't buy the hamburger if they don't want it. They would just have to find a new pizza place.

 

In short. If you're going to nerf this much for PvE then you need to nerf bosses/raids/dungeons even more for people to be able to do them.

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I also dont understand spell haste increase on Spell Mastery. As I caster I'll take that, I just dont see the reason behind it. 20% was hella strong as is.

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1 minute ago, Beastly said:

I'm okay with finetuning builds and making the overall scaling a bit lower, but this just isn't that. Sustain was in a pretty good state after agi healing nerfs. A huge nerf to every single sustain player (whatever variation it is) just seems completely out of place? People are not gonna want to make builds around sustain any longer with this change.

Sustain builds has a pretty big weakness. They need to go full agi or str to get some decent sustain going. This means they die within a very very short time if they are nuked down. In full BiS gear on LS I have 5,5k hp. A single killing spree is RIP for me. I simply cannot outsustain ANY build with good damage currently on live servers. I die in a few seconds to alot of builds.

I know this is seasonal and not live, but doesn't that just make even less sense then? People don't even come CLOSE to the same numbers that they do on live, so why on earth test it here? If scaling is an issue, this is probably the worst place to test this. Period.

We made a lot of these changes with the increase in baseline resilience, which lowers damage done across the board by quite a bit, and also additional PvP damage nerfs. So while it wasn't at an egregious state, it would have gotten much more powerful with players dealing less damage.

13 minutes ago, omendog said:

From changelog:

  • Smite base damage and scaling increased by 5%.
  • Searing Light now increases the damage of Holy Fire, Smite, Exorcism, Penance, and Holy Nova by 2/3/4%, from 3/4/5%.

Now correct me if i'm wrong, but when you buff the base scaling you also buff the damage provided by Searing Light (talent).

So previously, a smite for 50 base damage with a 50% coefficient (not the real one, i know) cast by a player with 100 spell power, 5/5 Searing Light talents and 5/5 Searing Light REs would deal: 
50 base dmg + 50 dmg from spellpower = 100 dmg + 20% from talent and 20% from RE, which stack additively, so 100 + 40% = 140 damage.


After the change, the same calculation would look like this:
52.5 base dmg + 52.5 dmg from spellpower= 105 dmg + 20% from talent and 15% from RE which stack additively, so 105 + 35% = 141.75 damage.

That looks like a buff to me. Sure you're changing things to resilience and spellpower scaling and whatever, but I don't see how that adresses the fact that some builds are significantly burstier than others. 

 

Just to clarify, do you think having a PvP meta in which some players allocate full agi or str while others allocate full stamina is a desirable thing? Do you think stat variety is good? If so, and if you agree with me that stamina-stacking seems very rare nowadays (especially compared with before), do you have any plans on how to make it more attractive? % health regen talents seem like the obvious answer to me.

The RE is actually multiplicative. Not every damage % modifier is, but most are. On top of that, a large part of Holy caster burst in PvP is due to Penance and Holy Fire, which didn't get any additional damage back to compensate. I understand Smite is core for them as well, but there damage should have decreased notably in PvP with this change.

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3 minutes ago, Pytho8 said:

Sooooo. These nerfs will lead to bigger nerfs in raids/dungeons so that it is possible to do them with the changes? I don't really care what happens pvp or on high risk, I just want to be able to do all raid content without feeling gimped after investing time, money, gold, orbs and so on. Having to redo my build is fine, don't mind a little theorycrafting, but having to re-RE my entire gear because of a nerf or massive change isn't cool. I imagine that some people here have lives and can't just spawn in orbs/runes/gold to get gear. Meaning it's going to take a lot of time for people who can't play 3-10 hours daily. Farming up stuff is a part of WoW, sure thing. But for people who use their precious time to get bis, to then have to go farm even more to change their gear, + for mats, is a huge requirement. 

We definitely do not want to upset the raid progression balance on Ascension. As I've said before, in a previous post maybe, we have coordinated with the AI Team to monitor the state of raids to ensure progression is not hindered with changes and that balance adjustments to raids are made accordingly with balance updates. 

5 minutes ago, Pytho8 said:

You can't make a PvE softcore server a terrible experience because you want people to play high risk. It's just going to equate into a loss of players instead of an increase. If people aren't playing there, it's because it's not their cup of tea. Hurting the PvE would just mean that people quit instead.

We definitely don't want that to be the case. High risk should be there only for the people who really want it.

8 minutes ago, mindw0rk said:

I also dont understand spell haste increase on Spell Mastery. As I caster I'll take that, I just dont see the reason behind it. 20% was hella strong as is.

Not sure if you also saw the large spell power nerfs we're handing out to casters. Not as high in PvP, but we wanted to offset that loss a bit. Melee damage was also dropped a bit so we didn't feel like we needed to overcompensate for casters.

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17 minutes ago, itswicky said:

The RE is actually multiplicative. Not every damage % modifier is, but most are. On top of that, a large part of Holy caster burst in PvP is due to Penance and Holy Fire, which didn't get any additional damage back to compensate. I understand Smite is core for them as well, but there damage should have decreased notably in PvP with this change.

I'd really like to see the data/numbers that would back up this fact, because this goes against everything I have learned in my 7 years of playing WoW

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Improved Earth Shield now increases the healing done by your Earth Shield by 4%, from 5%.
Second Wind now heals you for 4/8% of your maximum health, from 5/10%.
Seal of Light now scales with 6.5% of attack power, from 8%.
Cleanse now costs 12% mana, from 6%.
Sheath of Light now increases your spell healing by 2/4/6/8/10% of your attack power, from 4/8/12/16/20%.
Maelstrom Weapon no longer affects Chain Heal.
Touch by the Light now increases the critical healing of your Holy spells by 5/10/15%, from 10/20/30%.
Focused Will now increase all healing received by 1/2/3% per stack, no longer reduces the damage you receive, and all stacks are removed at once when dispelled.
Natural Perfection now has all stacks removed at once when dispelled.
Nether Protection now reduces spell damage taken by 20%, from 30%, and now has a 4 sec internal cooldown.
Earth Shield now has 5% less base healing and scales 15% less will spell power.

 

1 hour ago, itswicky said:

We made a lot of these changes with the increase in baseline resilience, which lowers damage done across the board by quite a bit, and also additional PvP damage nerfs. So while it wasn't at an egregious state, it would have gotten much more powerful with players dealing less damage.

The RE is actually multiplicative. Not every damage % modifier is, but most are. On top of that, a large part of Holy caster burst in PvP is due to Penance and Holy Fire, which didn't get any additional damage back to compensate. I understand Smite is core for them as well, but there damage should have decreased notably in PvP with this change.

Look at the above changes. ALL OF THIS is a nerf to sustain melees. These aren't just some changes here and there, these are major MAJOR changes that will absolutely destroy melee sustain. A total of 11 changes, some of them are HUGE in themselves. A whopping 50% nerf to Sheath of Light, chain heal no longer usable with Maelstrom, lower seal of light scaling, less scaling on Earth Shield, and a bunch of other changes on top of those.

Resi buff is something you're giving to EVERYONE. Not just sustain melees. The players we are up against will also have higher baseline DR. This gives them way more time to pressure us down before we get a chance to kill them. It just doesn't justify completely overkilling the archetype the way these nerfs will.

Sorry for sounding a bit harsh - I'm obviously frustrated and it's nothing personal, but honestly, just look at this list man.. If sustain was at a reasonable spot before these changes, how do u think they're gonna perform now?

Edited by Beastly

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32 minutes ago, itswicky said:

Not sure if you also saw the large spell power nerfs we're handing out to casters. Not as high in PvP, but we wanted to offset that loss a bit. Melee damage was also dropped a bit so we didn't feel like we needed to overcompensate for casters.

Can i ask why you're nerfing sp talents so hard though, it's 100-200 sp loss in some situations, which 5% haste doesn't quite make up for, sorry to say

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2 hours ago, itswicky said:

Earth Shield now has 5% less base healing and scales 15% less will spell power.

Why is this a nerf, I understand allot of people took it for PVP, But how can you make earth shield viable for PVE?
 

 

2 hours ago, itswicky said:

Armored to the Teeth now increases your melee attack power by 1/2/3 for every 150 armor, from 108.

This really hurts allot of melee in the fact that with it being nerfed this much lowers its value where it will only be good for Tanks. Even dps in full plate won't get big enough of an increase to take this.
 

 

2 hours ago, itswicky said:

Flask of the Titans now grants 600 health, from 1200.
Flask of Supreme Power now grants 70 spell power, from 150.

Unneeded nerfs unless you plan to tune raid so that flasks ARE NOT a requirement. As this severely nerfs their worth.
 

2 hours ago, itswicky said:

Mental Quickness now increases your spell damage by 3/6/9/12/15% of your attack power, from 4/8/12/16/20%.

You will probably have to give some power back to Paladin SP scaling abilities to compensate for this nerf as this nerf would reduce the damage of most hybrids by about 10%.
 

 

2 hours ago, itswicky said:

Inner Fire has had it’’s armor bonus reduced by 20% at all ranks.

With the change to ATTT is this even needed? it's bad enough it can expire from being attacked. 

*-IF all these nerfs go through melee are going to be weak AF in PVP, hybrids will be close to loosing viability, TG CLEAVE and 2H physical dps specs are going to be the top dps in PVE(as the currently are), casters/hunters are going to dominate PVP. 
Overall most of the changes just do not make sense. 

Edited by lewtorz

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Oh well, ascension, it's been fun, but I think I'm done. My experience of this server has been reduced to single player anyway, because of my desire to be a shadow caster as my main spec. Because this spec can only perform at about 75% of fire/frost caster dmg in pve I am unable to get a spot in raids with my guild that I have been with for over a year, and farming orbs to change specs (if I was willing to do so, which I'm not) would be a long and arduous process given the scarcity of orbs as a whole.

 

So my experience of the server is just log in and try to get a group, dance on the mailbox, and sit on the bench during raids in the hopes that one of the viable caster specs in raid has to log.

Seeing ongoing nerfs to shadow damage for the sake of pvp just makes it clear that this server will continue to limit your options for viable pve specs down to a selection of 1 or 2 specific schools only as a caster if you hope to get a raid spot, which for me undoes all the interest I had in building something viable that one could call their own.

I'm sure there will be myriad pros coming out saying they get 4k with shadow in pve, but in my experience with min/maxing the spec, 3k is the upper limit which is just not good enough to be given a raid spot compared to frost or conflag.

Look me up on vanilla kronos 3 alliance on my warlock, where shadow casters can be viable enough to get in raids.

Xx

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Adding to nestors comment, ALL your changes keep going to pvp changes, making it worse and worse for andorhal players who's atleast as big of a playerbase, probably more :)

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Just now, vanere12 said:

Adding to nestors comment, ALL your changes keep going to pvp changes, making it worse and worse for andorhal players who's atleast as big of a playerbase, probably more :)

The changes we've been making for the last 3 months have been more geared towards PvE. This is the first content patch that we have that is heavily PvP focused in quite some time, and most of the changes are even only on Season 2 for the time being.

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1 hour ago, mindw0rk said:

1. Not remove but maybe introduce cap of how much you can boost one stat. So that players didnt just put everything into one thing.

2. I dont see the need of this. If someone wants to boost different stats through talents, why not.

1. I could see this being a good Idea maybe make it where players if they can only allocate points inbetween stam or 1 of int/str/agi. But that would cause problems as well, idk. IMO it would be better to just get stats from gear alone.

2. Being about to stack %STR or %AGI with % AP ends up causing stats to double dip into bonus's which causes a multiplicative scaling effect that blows numbers out of proportion when compared to HP values, it's stacking like this that allows builds to get insane value and just 1 shot people in PVP. Just the same can be said with the caster side of things.

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6 minutes ago, vanere12 said:

Can i ask why you're nerfing sp talents so hard though, it's 100-200 sp loss in some situations, which 5% haste doesn't quite make up for, sorry to say

It's a ~50 sp change for casters, assuming they're fully raid buffed with all their points in strength. No caster has 4k AP, so it's definitely not a 200sp loss.

That said @itswicky, I really think there are much better ways to change things more... invisibly? Everyone will see that they lost 200 SP and feel really bad, but something like just nerfing the scaling on some things to nerf hybrid (which I don't personally deem necessary... at least, I don't think hybrid deserves nerfs moreso than anything else) would be much easier to digest than reducing the constantly visible measure of power hybrids have. 50 less damage on your weapon procs, seal procs, judgements and darkmoon card is certainly much easier to digest than just 200 flat SP loss, even if the effect on their damage is similar. There are ways to reduce player power that doesn't cause players to panic and think their spec is being killed.

 

Also, some specs are completely untouched by these changes, so it's not even just a flat player power nerf in some cases. Any non-hybrid, non-caster build is untouched (hunters, melee hunters, TG, MS/OP, slam, daggers, poisons, melee haste etc). All this does is make hybrids worse comparatively, so it significantly hurts their staying power in the PvE AND PvP meta. Effectively, this is just a step toward killing hybrids, even if it doesn't deal the killing blow on its own. This isn't enough to nerf player power on-the-whole, as people will just switch to specs that weren't touched. Any nerf to PvE content then would be amiss, as player power didn't really change -- just the power of casters and hybrids.

 

If you want my recommendation, first you should split hybrids and casters from sharing Mental Quickness as a core talent. Making Mental Quickness exclusive with Spell Mastery would ensure casters wouldn't use it, leaving it as purely a hybrid talent. Now you can fine-tune the power of hybrids without having to worry about caster SP being tied to Mental Quickness. Then you can control the SP values for casters and hybrids seperately.

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Are you going to nerf raids too to compensate for these changes? Many of your nerfs are targeted at top end players, with top end gear. The other 90% of the server struggling with progression, fresh 60s etc, its making it harder for them to progress unless carried by larger guilds. And personally id rather be able to clear Nef than do world invasions for bwl gear. 

Can I make a suggestion also and look at boosting some of the lesser used spells/talents, rather than focusing always on skimming the top?

Also before you flame this post, most of the outspoken people on this server are in the top 10%, the rest barely gets representation.

Edited by Saphelon

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2 minutes ago, Saphelon said:

Can I make a suggestion also and look at boosting some of the lesser used spells/talents, rather than focusing always on skimming the top?

Also yeah what this guy says. Nerfing specs = removing viable options = lessening build diversity, especially in the top performing PvE/PvP players.

You've done some good things so far with buffing weaker abilities/talents recently thus giving rise to more viable specs, so this just feels like a strange reversal. It doesn't make newer players feel welcome, it just feels like a big fat middle finger to older players.

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4 minutes ago, Saphelon said:

Are you going to nerf raids too to compensate for these changes? Many of your nerfs are targeted at top end players, with top end gear. The other 90% of the server struggling with progression, fresh 60s etc, its making it harder for them to progress unless carried by larger guilds. And personally id rather be able to clear Nef than do world invasions for bwl gear. 

Can I make a suggestion also and look at boosting some of the lesser used spells/talents, rather than focusing always on skimming the top?

Also before you flame this post, most of the outspoken people on this server are in the top 10%, the rest barely gets representation.

All very good points. We do have communication going with AI team to monitor raids. 

I've made a post previously about it, but we do plan on paying more attention to this specificaly.

You're absolutely correct on the last point. It's always good to hear from the underrepresented.

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1 hour ago, itswicky said:

We don't expect to have all the proper feedback collected in the first week as players are still gearing up. We do have some additional systems in place for Season 2 that should help people gear up more quickly than normally, so we don't expect it to take too long before people have mostly optimal set ups either.

Hilarious.

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I don't know if you're just conveniently avoiding any mentions of the PTR in this thread or not, but you've got two whole servers worth of players already geared and ready to test this sort of stuff, and  from your replies so far it sounds like you're putting all of these changes solely in the hands of Bloodscalp. Correct me if I'm wrong because I REALLY hope I am.

Even with the systems you've put in to get people geared faster I don't see how you can't sit here and honestly tell us you think seasonal players are gonna give us an accurate picture of how these changes would affect the live realms on bosses in AQT can you?

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I personaly HATE the season realm ! Iam not interested in playing multiple chars and i dont care for mounts cosmetic and stuff, i play WoW for the Endgame experience.

Currently i cant do CtA cause it doesnt pop to farm my missing epic pvp item to compensate my items from AQ. I cant go ZG cause their no player online so i cant get my exalted for shoulder enchants and idols for my items for c´thun progression. 

Sry but i hope people lose interest in Season as quick as possible so i can continue the actual game you provide, whish is great.

There so many nice features on the season realm (Callboard, Worldevents, Wildcard leveling) that you could have thrown on the regular realms and (looking at the callboard here O.O) that legacy realms rearly could need.

Last PTR i tested the shit out of my build and made a ton of sugestions to get pets less problematic in pvp (wish failed cause you just ignored my sugestions to Bestial wrath, people still QQ about it).

So from me, you will not get anny data from the seasonal realm.

Edited by Vedartha

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10 minutes ago, Vedartha said:

I personaly HATE the season realm ! Iam not interested in playing multiple chars and i dont care for mounts cosmetic and stuff, i play WoW for the Endgame experience.

Currently i cant do CtA cause it doesnt pop to farm my missing epic pvp item to compensate my items from AQ. I cant go ZG cause their no player online so i cant get my exalted for shoulder enchants and idols for my items for c´thun progression. 

Sry but i hope people lose interest in Season as quick as possible so i can continue the actual game you provide, whish is great.

There so many nice features on the season realm (Callboard, Worldevents, Wildcard leveling) that you could have thrown on the regular realms and (looking at the callboard here O.O) that legacy realms rearly could need.

Last PTR i tested the shit out of my build and made a ton of sugestions to get pets less problematic in pvp (wish failed cause you just ignored my sugestions to Bestial wrath, people still QQ about it).

So from me, you want get data of the seasonal realm.

Right, and we understand Bloodscalp isn't for everyone and that we likely won't get all the information we need from there alone. I mention it mostly because we will likely we doing changes to Bloodscalp long before its finished, which means changes that you see listed in the post above may not even make it past Season 2, let alone over to live.

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Funny how you actually buffed a passive 2 AE investment ability, while Kaladin once said you rly want to have spell mastery removed. 

Do you rly dislike melees that much @itswicky ?

How is 25% spell haste and 25% gcd reduction justified, while being a mere 2 AE investment. Pls explain. It should cost at least 12.5 AE if you compare it to other haste increasing talents.

 

Will melee charakters get melee mastery aswell in return which increase melee haste by 25% and reduces gcd by 25% aswell? 

 

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