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Blazing

State of ascension #andorhal

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(Everything bellow is suggestions, i do not believe that i know everything, they are all based on my opinion or how i feel things are. Feel free to inform me in the comments)

Hi Devs,

After having been around for quiet a long time now, i figured it was time i posted a wholesome thread on how i feel the server and the community is progressing. I have enjoyed the server a lot, but lately i have felt a need to speak out. Many things have been said on ascension, concepts of cool new spell schools which could have been found around the world, transmog storage etc,etc. Well, we haven't heard anything since it was first mentioned.

What i'm trying to say is, some of us feel left behind. We are aware that you are doing your best, but we still feel left out. Fulfilling the need of a community is not easy, and being a develooper can sometimes be challenging when many wants something. I thought i would share some of my opinions, thought and frustrations today, and perhaps some soloutions if they are worthy.

 

First off, i will start with looking at this from the perspective off a new player. Questing is lonely out there with nobody to play with, and the only postive thing about it, is the end result, max level. Yes you get to try out a few new ability combinations, and you spent all your money on changing abilites at level 20, so now you head off to stormwind or orgrimmar to ask for some gold to buy riding. At last when you get there, everyone tells you to learn travel form instead. 

The beginning off the game is barren, and i would like to do something about it. I have a few suggestions:

Make custom quests introducing ascensions content. Give a little cookie from the beginning, let the new players try out reforging on their beginner gear. Make orb shards drop from all loot tables; Where as low level mobs have a really rare chance of dropping them, and high level mobs a better chance. Allow quest chains to reward orb(s) and rune(s) if you are the appropriate level. I think some more controll over specc viability while leveling is good, especially if you get a good blue lasting you for 10-15 levels, which have a bad RE. This would mean more table locations, but i think that is for the better as the long travel did not benefit anything but game time. That is at least how i feel as there is very little you can do while going to the RE tables, especially in the eastern kingdom.

As mentioned above about orbs and runes dropping from quests, i think this will insentivise doing dungeons while leveling.

Secondary thought would go to the profession system. At the moment, only gathering has been insentivised. Enchanting, alchemy and engineering is the only professions with anything to them. You get orbs from farming materials, but nothing from crafting a amazing piece of gear. Oils and weapon stones are totally absent from the auction house, because there is no boon spending extra time crafting or buying them. Bloodvine is the only good thing about tailoring, and making bombs for raids is kinda, not worth it. I think it would be a idea to implement set bonuses on leveling gear that is crafted, and to give profession items more value. Nobody like doing DM:N tribute, because there are no blacksmiths or engineers with blast charges or keys, sure you have lockpicking which is great, for the alternatives are worse. 

Another thing about crafting that is missed, is the sense of having done something useful. I think that the best example would be the legendary weapons, which takes a lot of effort for great reward. Is there any rewards for all the effort in any of the other professions, before level 60, and after bwl? I can't see it unfortunatly.

As stated above, gear is something i have put a lot of thought into. Especially in the case of dungons. The AQ set changes are great, and i would love to see more of that! Dungeons need more love, and i think that there is a few things that could be done to make more people engage in other things than brd and dm:E. First off, i think that the daily system works well, even if it buggs out sometimes and does not give a reward. The idea goes like this, add a separate daily reward for every singel dungeon. Set a gold reward for the first turn in, and perhaps add just the orb bonus for the following ones. The other idea i had would be to do a rework on gear in dungeons. Tier 0.5 is upgradeable, but most people jump directly over to t1 or catchup gear. I think that the base 0.5 should have some secondary stats, and perhaps the quest gear for the upgraded version could be on par with tier 1?

The second mention would be for raids. In this example i would mention molten core. I believe that hard mode would have more value if bosses did not share certain pieces for their loot table. That way, some bosses are more attractive to do hard mode on, and perhaps you get what you want more often if you decide to put in the effort?

Speaking of raiding, 10 man raids does not feel right. In comparison to 25 man, 10 man has a lot more challenge to it. The reason for believing this is simple, the mechanics are the same for both tier, while as there are less people to fill in the obligations for the same role. In 25 man you can assign people much more easily as you have room for every singel spell of value in your roaster of raiders. This makes it by far easier to assign people, and a lot cheaper. From my own experience, you usually have to spend at least 200-300 gold a night in aq40/20 to change your spec to fit the boss you are doing. The effort is by far no fun. We would do 25 man to gather gear to make 10 man easier, but there is not a lot of players to pick. We could have multiboxed to, but that's not really legal. The point is, the mechanics for 10 and 25 man should not be the same, only reducing the values does not make balance between the tiers. Hope this is a alright understanding. I do like the challenge, don't get me wrong... but you don't really feel like putting in the effort knowing it could have been so much easier getting those juicy epicz.

 

For the record, i don't really have anything to say about Pvp other than, it's just like retail.

I also wanted to make a mention about the seasonal realms. The reason is that this feel a lot like the diablo 3 seasons. Nobody is playing the 'legacy' servers when the seasons are out, there is just a content draught on them while that is happening. Those that don't want to play on the seasonal realms, are stuck to play by them selvs, resulting in a lot of people leaving when the season is over. Those that only came to play seasonal, is gonna leave until the next season. Would it be possible that you tested new features on LS and andorhal as well?

 

I do hope i managed to get some good points out, and i would of course like to hear some more suggestions from others.

Thanks for reading, see ya'all in seasonal.

- heh

 

 

 

 

Edited by Blazing

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5 minutes ago, phyrex said:

it is. 

10man is a joke compared to 25man, atleast in its(bwl/aq) previous states. whoever 'tested' that shit when it was launched on live, thanks, everything up to c'thun is now a meme(but thats because of bad mechanics and scripting(visc/twins/skeram..)). but c'thun for example you get punished 10 times over when the positioning space is much more needed. where as a 10man you literally can meme around as quaklings, look at all the vids on twitch. hah. heh.


edit; I actually remember raiding 25man bwl and not caring too much about 10mans a year ago, i tagged along into 10man bwl.. holy shit though what a difference. Literally a 5man dungeon. 

IDK but in my experience, excluding C'thun, the tuning is actually much easier on 25mans. Bosses have 250% HP but you get almost 3 times as many DPS.

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37 minutes ago, phyrex said:

ye its what i said exactly, everything up to c'thun is a meme cus mechanics arent relly a thing

edit; and i dont know about alliance but horde has a lot of bm hunter that abuse the living shit out of snapshotting pet RE's haha, doesnt work on c'thun ofc but still, ez loot entire dungeon

I'm not sure you follow. You seem to be saying that 10mans are easier than 25mans, I'm disagreeing and saying that 10mans are harder than 25mans.

None of the damage tuning is different in 25mans, it seems to mostly just be HP values are higher, except they're not proportionate to the more DPS you can bring so the enrage timers are easier to meet on a 25man than on a 10man. 

Obviously, C'thun is the exception in that the mechanics require much more precise positioning in 25man, though the DPS requirement is probably still somewhat looser.

 

I'd hardly call 10mans "free loot". Everyone there has to know what they're doing pretty much. Much less room for dead weight compared to 25man where you can carry people easily up until C'thun.

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As someone who has done bwl and aq40 in both 10m and 25m, 25m is way easier than 10 man.

The only exception are Chromaggus and C'thun

If anything, 25m was a joke. You can take a few deadweight players and still kill bosses, the damage isnt tuned properly and we werent even close to reaching enrage timers with a few undergeared ppl.

Its also way easier to fit all buffs in a 25m raid meaning everyone has more AE to use.

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3 hours ago, phyrex said:

it is. 

10man is a joke compared to 25man, atleast in its(bwl/aq) previous states. whoever 'tested' that shit when it was launched on live, thanks, everything up to c'thun is now a meme(but thats because of bad mechanics and scripting(visc/twins/skeram..)). but c'thun for example you get punished 10 times over when the positioning space is much more needed. where as a 10man you literally can meme around as quaklings, look at all the vids on twitch. hah. heh.


edit; I actually remember raiding 25man bwl and not caring too much about 10mans a year ago, i tagged along into 10man bwl.. holy shit though what a difference. Literally a 5man dungeon. 

He was being sarcastic and poking fun at Lost Chapter.

Anyways, as others have stated above me, 25 man is the easier mode for almost every boss. This isn't necessarily a bad thing given that it allows a few newer players to be taken along for the ride and experience AQ. 10man has very little room for any hard carries ;) 

1 hour ago, mecar said:

As someone who has done bwl and aq40 in both 10m and 25m, 25m is way easier than 10 man.

The only exception are Chromaggus and C'thun

If anything, 25m was a joke. You can take a few deadweight players and still kill bosses, the damage isnt tuned properly and we werent even close to reaching enrage timers with a few undergeared ppl.

Its also way easier to fit all buffs in a 25m raid meaning everyone has more AE to use.

^^ Pretty much on the money here

1 hour ago, phyrex said:

yeah damage scaling up to one shot mechanics is great, k mate. cu next round

Dunno which mechanics in AQ40 you're talking about pal, but I haven't experienced any higher damage mechanics simply because it's 25 man and not 10 man. Sounds like it might be a case of gitgud for you ;) 

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I was kinda curious to what this would lead to, seems raiding is a itchy topic, even tho i had hoped there would be more discussion around the overall experience on the server.  

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13 hours ago, Blazing said:

Nobody like doing DM:N tribute, because there are no blacksmiths or engineers with blast charges or keys, sure you have lockpicking which is great, for the alternatives are worse. 

I've done plenty of those using seaforium and truesilver keys often when nobody had lockpicking past 200.

13 hours ago, Blazing said:

Tier 0.5 is upgradeable, but most people jump directly over to t1 or catchup gear. I think that the base 0.5 should have some secondary stats, and perhaps the quest gear for the upgraded version could be on par with tier 1?

It is meant to be in that position of power. While you could argue that the effort and costs were way too steep for the reward, they were catering to a different audience than raid gear.

13 hours ago, Blazing said:

The second mention would be for raids. In this example i would mention molten core. I believe that hard mode would have more value if bosses did not share certain pieces for their loot table. That way, some bosses are more attractive to do hard mode on, and perhaps you get what you want more often if you decide to put in the effort?

Do you mean how it only affects the amount of tier items dropped?

13 hours ago, Blazing said:

peaking of raiding, 10 man raids does not feel right. In comparison to 25 man, 10 man has a lot more challenge to it. The reason for believing this is simple, the mechanics are the same for both tier, while as there are less people to fill in the obligations for the same role. In 25 man you can assign people much more easily as you have room for every singel spell of value in your roaster of raiders. This makes it by far easier to assign people, and a lot cheaper. From my own experience, you usually have to spend at least 200-300 gold a night in aq40/20 to change your spec to fit the boss you are doing. The effort is by far no fun. We would do 25 man to gather gear to make 10 man easier, but there is not a lot of players to pick. We could have multiboxed to, but that's not really legal. The point is, the mechanics for 10 and 25 man should not be the same

Yes, this is one of the greater flaws in the system how abilities and talents allowed across a whole raid group is allowed/allocated. It is by far easier in 25m to cover all secondary buffs/debuffs and cover commonly unpopular, yet somewhat desired for said encounter (Mana burn on Moam, grounding totems, etc.)

This is a soft spot as it hints toward an increasing amount of developer hours on a single encounter when there are already strict release deadlines for raids.

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1 hour ago, phyrex said:

talking in past sense, dunno what they did to current raiding scene.

also arent u stormguard? literally the most usless troll on this server? how are u not bent yet

edit: nvm 1 post, u are a troll

Sounds like you're the troll, have you even done AQ40?

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How would that plaguebolt be "build defining" by your standards? It would just be a frostbolt with more buffs (some would call that... build enhancing).

The SEF would also p much just enhance already existing builds. Hybrids would pick up lava lash. Big change. See not as easy as you think to make 'new builds' viable or competetive 😛

Bringing in tbc spells would require a whole fuckton of balancing :/ I know, I should come up with ideas and suggestions myself instead of just tearing yours down.. but it's so much easier.

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We sometimes joke that Dev's do custom mechanics that force us to use spells that we dont normally have so we need to grind more gold/buy scrolls. We are waiting for the bosses in Nax that need mend pet, far sight and water walking to be able to beat them. 

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On 12/12/2018 at 2:23 AM, Foibos said:

I thought the common sensus was that 10man is just a glorified dungeon :o

I remember the days when people on world try to tell me 10 man was harder then 25 man.

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Just now, phyrex said:

dont forget eye of killrog bruh

Eyy man I got that epic re on sale for 500g, it's a steal.

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25 minutes ago, SirGank said:

I remember the days when people on world try to tell me 10 man was harder then 25 man.

It is, you missed the sarcasm that was directed at Lost Chaptards

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1 hour ago, Sky said:

It is, you missed the sarcasm that was directed at Lost Chaptards

I love how salty you are for some reason, but anyways if you think 10 man is hard on ascension then I feel sorry for you.

10 man's only hard if you have no mechanical skill what's so ever, which still makes it easy as half the mechanics are a meme, like ouro .

What's funny is that you're examples are content that's been nerfed heavly after 9 months of being released. and even aq when it was first released aq 10 man was much easier then 25 man mainly because 25 had no one testing it before it went live. even now 25 man still harder then 10 man even tho both are easy. 10 man is easier.

 

That being said, All raids aren't hard at all, it's funny you try to act like 10 man is harder then 25 man when in reality the only two boss fights in ascension that have ever been hard are chrom (even tho's he's been nerfed which makes him a lot easier) and C'thun. Raids in ascension are super easy compared to anything in current or recent wow.

 

But what really makes this funny is that you're so salty about 25 mans that I see you rage about it in every medium that ascension is part of. but don't let this stop you from expressing your opinion I love seeing how "unique" and "creative" your views are on difficulty.

Edited by SirGank

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6 hours ago, SirGank said:

I love how salty you are for some reason, but anyways if you think 10 man is hard on ascension then I feel sorry for you.

10 man's only hard if you have no mechanical skill what's so ever, which still makes it easy as half the mechanics are a meme, like ouro .

What's funny is that you're examples are content that's been nerfed heavly after 9 months of being released. and even aq when it was first released aq 10 man was much easier then 25 man mainly because 25 had no one testing it before it went live. even now 25 man still harder then 10 man even tho both are easy. 10 man is easier.

 

That being said, All raids aren't hard at all, it's funny you try to act like 10 man is harder then 25 man when in reality the only two boss fights in ascension that have ever been hard are chrom (even tho's he's been nerfed which makes him a lot easier) and C'thun. Raids in ascension are super easy compared to anything in current or recent wow.

 

But what really makes this funny is that you're so salty about 25 mans that I see you rage about it in every medium that ascension is part of. but don't let this stop you from expressing your opinion I love seeing how "unique" and "creative" your views are on difficulty.

What is funny is that you are salty that we are asking for a improved 10 man experience. You can also say that 25 man is easier than 40 man, but it does not really matter in the end if 10 man feels clonky, RNG based etc. 1 player on 10 man can get mind controlled 6 times in a row on skeram, and he does burn your mana as quick as on 25 man. So what do you do when you don't have 1 healer for 2 mins? it¨'s kinda frustrating wiping to such mechanics

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6 hours ago, SirGank said:

I love how salty you are for some reason, but anyways if you think 10 man is hard on ascension then I feel sorry for you.

10 man's only hard if you have no mechanical skill what's so ever, which still makes it easy as half the mechanics are a meme, like ouro .

What's funny is that you're examples are content that's been nerfed heavly after 9 months of being released. and even aq when it was first released aq 10 man was much easier then 25 man mainly because 25 had no one testing it before it went live. even now 25 man still harder then 10 man even tho both are easy. 10 man is easier.

 

That being said, All raids aren't hard at all, it's funny you try to act like 10 man is harder then 25 man when in reality the only two boss fights in ascension that have ever been hard are chrom (even tho's he's been nerfed which makes him a lot easier) and C'thun. Raids in ascension are super easy compared to anything in current or recent wow.

 

But what really makes this funny is that you're so salty about 25 mans that I see you rage about it in every medium that ascension is part of. but don't let this stop you from expressing your opinion I love seeing how "unique" and "creative" your views are on difficulty.

I honestly don't know how you can think that 25 is harder than 10.

25 you have so much room to bring in people who are Fresh 60s, undergeared, with suboptimal specs and still clear the content.  You do not have the room to do that on 10.

The ONLY boss that is harder in 25 is Cthun.  Everything else is a cakewalk in 25 even with carrying people.  

You should be fully aware of this Gank.   Lost chapter blew through 25 with raiders that are undergeared for AQ.  You even have raiders that don't even have enchants on their gear. 

You cant tell me that 25 is harder than 10.  When you are completely able to carry half the raid in 25.  Try carrying half a raid in 10.

 

Or maybe the reason you think 25 is harder than 10 is because you are carrying half a raid of people, while in 10 you have a full roster competent raiders?

Edited by Skray

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Maybe we should have a 3rd difficulty called "Ascended" mode where you run the 25 man mode mobs with 10 people (A version of heroic), maybe that would sate yall raiding thirst. Rewards can be stronger.

 

I dont see the fun in reruning same content over and over even after not getting the gear I wanted from the runs, but can't sate everyone can you?

Edited by Soklava45

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1 hour ago, Skray said:

Or maybe the reason you think 25 is harder than 10 is because you are carrying half a raid of people, while in 10 you have a full roster competent raiders?

This is it, and the fact that Lost Chapter is also hardstuck on Huhuran (and has been since Huhuran released, given that they extend the same lockout every week) should speak volumes to which is actually the more difficult raid. 

49 minutes ago, Soklava45 said:

Maybe we should have a 3rd difficulty called "Ascended" mode where you run the 25 man mode mobs with 10 people (A version of heroic), maybe that would sate yall raiding thirst. Rewards can be stronger.

 

I dont see the fun in reruning same content over and over even after not getting the gear I wanted from the runs, but can't sate everyone can you?

In all honesty I'd rather see flex-raids coming to Ascension, then the devs can work on Normal and Heroic difficulties, instead of 10 and 25. That'd be awesome 😆

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1 hour ago, Skray said:

I honestly don't know how you can think that 25 is harder than 10.

25 you have so much room to bring in people who are Fresh 60s, undergeared, with suboptimal specs and still clear the content.  You do not have the room to do that on 10.

The ONLY boss that is harder in 25 is Cthun.  Everything else is a cakewalk in 25 even with carrying people.  

You should be fully aware of this Gank.   Lost chapter blew through 25 with raiders that are undergeared for AQ.  You even have raiders that don't even have enchants on their gear. 

You cant tell me that 25 is harder than 10.  When you are completely able to carry half the raid in 25.  Try carrying half a raid in 10.

 

Or maybe the reason you think 25 is harder than 10 is because you are carrying half a raid of people, while in 10 you have a full roster competent raiders?

I wish people would read that I said, ALL THE RAIDS aren't hard at all. they're all extermly easy aside from two bosses in the entire game. Now is 25 man harder then 10 man? yes imo I find the content in 10 man 10X easier with how undertuned everything is. example being ouro or any boss where the damage is so low you can have pws healers shield you enough to ignore the mechanic.

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1 minute ago, SirGank said:

I wish people would read that I said, ALL THE RAIDS aren't hard at all. they're all extermly easy aside from two bosses in the entire game. Now is 25 man harder then 10 man? yes imo I find the content in 10 man 10X easier with how undertuned everything is. example being ouro or any boss where the damage is so low you can have pws healers shield you enough to ignore the mechanic.

Do you not run 2x PWS in 25?

The damage isn't really turned up that much in 25, you add 2-3 healers to cover the extra 15 players and everything is pretty much the same in my experience.  We really have not had any issues in 25 with damage being higher.  

Blart or Sky could comment more since they heal for our group but as far as ignoring damage with PWS, I suppose that yes, if you don't have a 2nd PWS healer than 25 will be a lot harder.  But that comes down to raid composition, not the raid itself.

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Just now, Skray said:

Do you not run 2x PWS in 25?

The damage isn't really turned up that much in 25, you add 2-3 healers to cover the extra 15 players and everything is pretty much the same in my experience.  We really have not had any issues in 25 with damage being higher.  

Blart or Sky could comment more since they heal for our group but as far as ignoring damage with PWS, I suppose that yes, if you don't have a 2nd PWS healer than 25 will be a lot harder.  But that comes down to raid composition, not the raid itself.

Didn't say anything about how many pws we got.

I'd say half the 25 man stuff on aq was either overtuned or undertuned. Atm aq 40 is easier then when we cleared it (up to c'thun) with all the changes and tuning down.

I'd take everything sky says with a grain of salt seeing as I get the feeling he doesn't like us or maybe he has trouble expressing his feelings.

Edited by SirGank

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5 minutes ago, SirGank said:

when we clearedit

Lost Chapter has cleared AQ40? ;) 

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