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Dev Update #72

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18 hours ago, itswicky said:

I feel there is maybe a bit of a misunderstanding here. We actually never said we were intending to nerf Backstab builds, not even for PvP. In fact, we're looking at improving the build for PvP by offering it more things to do then just an opener then vanish/disengaging the fight. I've also said, many, many numerous times, that we're looking specifically at melee build performance in PvE with our next update and Backstab definitely falls into that category. Again, I apologize if you were mislead or somehow misinformed, but hopefully I've done enough to dispel the illusion that we were planning on nerfing this build.

Wanted to give thanks for keep such open communication between players and devs, it's fantastic.

With slight vested interest, are melee DW/2handed hybrids planned into that one as well?

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Sulfuras is already a very strong weapon and definitely does not need its attack speed changed to 3.8. There is barely any investment when it comes to getting Sulfuras, it's purely based on RNG. There are less people with Drake Fang Talisman than people with Sulfuras, and you're looking to buff Sulfuras... okay.

Edited by Lars

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1 hour ago, Lars said:

Sulfuras is already a very strong weapon and definitely does not need its attack speed changed to 3.8. There is barely any investment when it comes to getting Sulfuras, it's purely based on RNG. There are less people with Drake Fang Talisman than people with Sulfuras, and you're looking to buff Sulfuras... okay.

Buff drake fang talisman instead :^)

 

 

Btw, Sulfuras is an okay weapon itself but its a sidegrade to ashkandi at best. The problem is that sword spec atm is just better than stuff like mace spec.

Edited by mecar

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Thank you very much for this detailed post, its always nice the devs communicate their plans and ask for feedback. 

Also, as an online marketing expert, im very glad to hear that you are updating your webpage, I really do think that it will improving the ergonomics of the website will help you to get more customers, will help us to get more players. 

On the other hand, im quite worried about the sulfuras buff (not really about the buff itself, rather the message it sends to the communiy). In my opinion there is already an incredibly huge gap between the new players and old players, both gear and skillwise. Although this is pretty normal in wow, in this server this gap is multiplied by the nature of RE-s and the classless system, which requires astounding amount of grind and knowledge about the game - knowledge that you can not acquire anywhere else. This is even worse considering how little guides are out there, and how outdated are the guides which are actually available, and how reluctant are the players to share their builds, even in pve.  

After you, the devs, taking a big step in the right direction - making the very strong epic pvp items available (which can be farmed by basically afking/getting oneshotted in pvp by the veterans, but thats another topic), you immidiately take a step back, and buff a weapon that is basically only owned by veterans. 

I really do think the server's LEAST important problem is the state of legendary weapons, and I find it sad that you are catering for a very small amount of minmaxing veterans, instead of focusing on keeping the newcomers by giving them multiple catchup mechanisms, and helping them have a fair shot against the guys who've been farming orbs and testing builds since the inception of the server. 

With all due respect, I recommend you to redistribute the working hours you planned to spend on buffing legendary weapons and sets, instead spend it on updating the talent calculators, creating guides which actually present meta builds instead of Firestarter which fails to do 1k dps, and implementing catchup mechanisms, which will help newcomers to get gear, to get ready for BWL and AQ. If the rumors I heard are true, you all have nothing to lose: as TBC is coming soon, all gear will become obsolete very quick anyways, so dont be shy to cater for the fresh 60s.

Regards,

An honest fan of your project.

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6 hours ago, pigy said:

Wanted to give thanks for keep such open communication between players and devs, it's fantastic.

With slight vested interest, are melee DW/2handed hybrids planned into that one as well?

I hate saying yes to this because we've seen that there are just so damn many different melee hybrid builds. We're going to do out best to touch up as many of them as possible, but apologies now if we miss any. Please feel free to let us know what kind of build you guys are playing so we can be sure to try and and not miss it!.


@Rudehammer Thanks very much for you detailed post and your feedback.

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On 11/11/2018 at 7:29 PM, itswicky said:

Not yet, but whenever we have more work complete and we're ready to announce a concrete date, or even a soft one, we'll let you know along with some more specifics on the changes.

Not trying to rush you guys, but im really at a loss about what to do with my builds. I've recently invested a lot of gold and more than 360k honor to make a "agi healer melee" build, so its kinda a bummer for me, to see that its getting nerfed and I have no idea if its worth for me to invest more time and gold into making this build. So ye, it would be nice if you could at least be a little bit more specific of what you are going to change etc.

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wicky, make sure to read thread about dispel magic in suggestions section. We got some hot debates there about whether to put dispel magic/purge on 8 seconds cooldown.

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31 minutes ago, itswicky said:

I hate saying yes to this because we've seen that there are just so damn many different melee hybrid builds. We're going to do out best to touch up as many of them as possible, but apologies now if we miss any. Please feel free to let us know what kind of build you guys are playing so we can be sure to try and and not miss it!.


@Rudehammer Thanks very much for you detailed post and your feedback.

Speaking of hybrids, we have seal hybrids, enhancement shamans, fire hybrids, frost hybrids etc...

We have indeed so many variations, but one fantasy that is (apparently) interessing for certain players yet doesn't really work is a "shadow warrior" which suffer from a few problems:

* Extremely high mana cost for instant cast shadow spells

* Inability to correctly maintain important shadow buffs such as shadow embrace or shadow weaving

* Inability to effectively refresh corruption/swpain with other spells (unless they resort to hardcasting...) unlike casters

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24 minutes ago, AG007 said:

Not trying to rush you guys, but im really at a loss about what to do with my builds. I've recently invested a lot of gold and more than 360k honor to make a "agi healer melee" build, so its kinda a bummer for me, to see that its getting nerfed and I have no idea if its worth for me to invest more time and gold into making this build. So ye, it would be nice if you could at least be a little bit more specific of what you are going to change etc.

We know how important the specifics are to you guys, so as I said, we will get those out to you guys as soon as we have them.

 

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17 minutes ago, mecar said:

Speaking of hybrids, we have seal hybrids, enhancement shamans, fire hybrids, frost hybrids etc...

We have indeed so many variations, but one fantasy that is (apparently) interessing for certain players yet doesn't really work is a "shadow warrior" which suffer from a few problems:

* Extremely high mana cost for instant cast shadow spells

* Inability to correctly maintain important shadow buffs such as shadow embrace or shadow weaving

* Inability to effectively refresh corruption/swpain with other spells (unless they resort to hardcasting...) unlike casters

@itswicky since we're talking about hybrids, I also wanna add something I've experimented with, which is "Holy-Shield-Hunter" (i guess thats the best way to describe it, lol). Basically its a hunter that uses the paladin Holy shock and the Avengers Shield, as well as judgement with increased range, along with normal hunter abilities i.e. shots and stings. 

The problem with this build is that it cancels/refresh auto shot timer all the time  when using paladin abilities, causing dmg loss, and obviously ranged attacks doesn't benefit from any of the palandin seals really. But if it was possible that you could do the same thing as you did with melee auto attacks, so that spells doesn't reset auto shot timer then it could probably be a viable build.

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31 minutes ago, AG007 said:

Not trying to rush you guys, but im really at a loss about what to do with my builds. I've recently invested a lot of gold and more than 360k honor to make a "agi healer melee" build, so its kinda a bummer for me, to see that its getting nerfed and I have no idea if its worth for me to invest more time and gold into making this build. So ye, it would be nice if you could at least be a little bit more specific of what you are going to change etc.

To be fair, a 360k honor investment is in gear I take it? Gear can be used for multiple speccs, overhaul to REs tends to be reimbursed with exchangable REs (even if this still leaves some to be desired due to maybe using a blue re for a specc and having that nerfed is forced to go with epics instead...)

 

Whichever specc one runs has the risk to be nerfed, rdsulting in 'wasted' resources. This is especially true, and SHOULD be, for the fotm speccs as the nature of a fotm specc means it will get attention from devs and opening their eyes to possible balancing needs.

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19 minutes ago, Foibos said:

Gear can be used for multiple speccs

Sure, but those other builds may not be what I want to play and thus the time, gold and honor I've spend is wasted.

The thing is, I'm one of those kind of people who go all in on min-maxing builds, even builds I've just made, because I want to see the full potential of the build before I ditch it. This is obviously a risky strategy for many reasons, but when it turns out good, it can really result in a lot of time and resources saved. This time I went for the quite popular agility melee healer type of build but I didn't think it would be so OP that it would get nerfed again - I honestly thought it was in a pretty decent state.

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1 hour ago, AG007 said:

Sure, but those other builds may not be what I want to play and thus the time, gold and honor I've spend is wasted.

The thing is, I'm one of those kind of people who go all in on min-maxing builds, even builds I've just made, because I want to see the full potential of the build before I ditch it. This is obviously a risky strategy for many reasons, but when it turns out good, it can really result in a lot of time and resources saved. This time I went for the quite popular agility melee healer type of build but I didn't think it would be so OP that it would get nerfed again - I honestly thought it was in a pretty decent state.

We definitely understand and sympathize with what you're expressing here. Time is a invaluable resource, so making changes that players feel like their time is lost or wasted is not something we want to do. We haven't come to a final decision yet on the change we'll be making, but we understand the anxiety of being in limbo as a player not knowing what exactly is to come. We'll make sure we get our decisions made soon and share them with you as quickly as we can.

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Cats running rampant in PvP, any plans for PvE buffs? Especially with the nerfs to pets Cat will be completely lost.

 

The main issue I have is, that the Leg. Re is basically a glorified 5% dmg buff, how about instead of a random Procc, the Leg. Re makes your Ferocious Bite extend the Rip/Rake (any or both of them I dont mind either) duration by a certain amount? That way you could actually use an actual FINISHER and not a decently hitting DoT.

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2 hours ago, Hashihime said:

Cats running rampant in PvP, any plans for PvE buffs? Especially with the nerfs to pets Cat will be completely lost.

We definitely will be looking at cats with the melee pass we're doing.

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49 minutes ago, itswicky said:

We definitely will be looking at cats with the melee pass we're doing.

i rly can stress enough how much i do hope that you take a look at the suggestions i made earlier in this thread concerning the following:


JUoy1WG.pngUoxXspW.pngjUGRdCj.pngoMyEv5f.pngszMnder.png243iu2o.png

Please think about normalising them all to not require the specific weapon type anymore and let players pick and choose them on based what weapon type theyd like to use / are their best weapon they currently have ... this will open up alot of opportunity to have different speccs without having to pick either or and possibly downgrading weapons in order to utilise them. It also is quite possibly the easiest way to overall "buff" melee speccs without having to focus on very distinct speccs and maybe leave other speccs behind because you simply didnt thought about them.


rQ7Syfz.png8eAK1qb.png

even those 2 could be made to be available for DW-Speccs


The reason for this changes is to have more talents to choose from... currently every high tier specc is a copy pasterino from someone else who alrdy min-maxed a certain specc and leaves no room for diversity rly. Those few selected Talents might change that ... im p-sure theres alot of other talents who could benefit from a non weapon type requirement aswell.


Also what i think could open up more build diversity / weapon of choice for certain speccs (hybrids more than physical speccs) is to remove "Main-Hand" and "Off-hand" requirements of all weapons currently in the game. A short list of examples:


wb1gdmR.pngYeIyI2D.pngnrAC76i.pngNL4vfGE.pngrUvup6z.pngDUayOS3.pngwQQVIOs.png46SRD8M.png


it certainly wont have a very big impact on the balance but itll certainly will make players happy if they can put certain weapons into use once again ... more so new players with limited gear than alrdy stacked players!


Lemme think what you guys have to say about that

 

Especially you - Itswicky!

Gday

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8 hours ago, Peel2g said:



Also what i think could open up more build diversity / weapon of choice for certain speccs (hybrids more than physical speccs) is to remove "Main-Hand" and "Off-hand" requirements of all weapons currently in the game. A short list of examples:

Absolutely! I suggested it long ago and I think it will bring more builds and gear variety. If caster wants to have abit more dmg sacrificing 2k+ armor and 20% haste, let him have it. Atm there are just no good caster weapons to hold in offhand that make it worth it.

We have freedom of choice between abilities, talents and armor. So why we are still restricted in weapons choice?

Edited by mindw0rk

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12 hours ago, Peel2g said:

i rly can stress enough how much i do hope that you take a look at the suggestions i made earlier in this thread concerning the following:


JUoy1WG.pngUoxXspW.pngjUGRdCj.pngoMyEv5f.pngszMnder.png243iu2o.png

Please think about normalising them all to not require the specific weapon type anymore and let players pick and choose them on based what weapon type theyd like to use / are their best weapon they currently have ... this will open up alot of opportunity to have different speccs without having to pick either or and possibly downgrading weapons in order to utilise them. It also is quite possibly the easiest way to overall "buff" melee speccs without having to focus on very distinct speccs and maybe leave other speccs behind because you simply didnt thought about them.


rQ7Syfz.png8eAK1qb.png

even those 2 could be made to be available for DW-Speccs


The reason for this changes is to have more talents to choose from... currently every high tier specc is a copy pasterino from someone else who alrdy min-maxed a certain specc and leaves no room for diversity rly. Those few selected Talents might change that ... im p-sure theres alot of other talents who could benefit from a non weapon type requirement aswell.


Also what i think could open up more build diversity / weapon of choice for certain speccs (hybrids more than physical speccs) is to remove "Main-Hand" and "Off-hand" requirements of all weapons currently in the game. A short list of examples:


wb1gdmR.pngYeIyI2D.pngnrAC76i.pngNL4vfGE.pngrUvup6z.pngDUayOS3.pngwQQVIOs.png46SRD8M.png


it certainly wont have a very big impact on the balance but itll certainly will make players happy if they can put certain weapons into use once again ... more so new players with limited gear than alrdy stacked players!


Lemme think what you guys have to say about that

 

Especially you - Itswicky!

Gday

What? It will have a massive impact on balance, casters having the abilitys to holding a nerf mace and a claw of chrom? that's like giving them a permanent half flask of supreme power. Casters atm are in a pretty good position interms of dps, why would they need a big buff like this? we already have a problem with scaling why make it worse, the problem will double as naxx comes out.

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23 hours ago, itswicky said:

I hate saying yes to this because we've seen that there are just so damn many different melee hybrid builds. We're going to do out best to touch up as many of them as possible, but apologies now if we miss any. Please feel free to let us know what kind of build you guys are playing so we can be sure to try and and not miss it!.


@Rudehammer Thanks very much for you detailed post and your feedback.

Cheers for the response, sorry about the following wall of text.

So when I've DPSed on this server it's always been some version or other of maelstrom weapon, I started out with LB/CL, then you changed it so fireball/frostbolt works for it and added the damage increase of stormstrike and I switched to fire. Currently I'm running maelstrom weapon with frostbrand, FoF and Fired up! (as well as Flame on!) to try and get as many fireball/fireblast crits as possible leading into pyros. Wit this I have searing totem, flame shock and curse of doom for high DPC.

As for physical abilities I run Hammer of the Righteous, Stormstrike, Whirlwind and divine storm to generate as many maelstrom charges as possible, as well as sinister strike, Eviscerate and SnD with the epic RE.

Now i'm MC/ZG geared as DPS, nothing fancy but I have my fiery retributer and a few other goodies, I still struggle to break into the 1500 DPS range, while six months ago I did BWL with frost casters and conflag casters breaking 4k, I switched to tanking because I just couldn't deliver. I realize this is partly or greatly on me since there are players like Haddeqi doing good, I just can't figure it out myself.

My issues with any form of maelstrom build is you lose out on so many talent points just for the concept you want to play compared to other specs, the build above needs Touched by the Light, Mental Quickness amd Maelstrom Weapon just to have the basic tools for your build, compared to say getting just Titan's grip, cat form, spell mastery or autoshot and start building from there. To top it off with performance increasing talents being specifically made to cater to specific abilities and the hybrid by definition using a variety of abilities it falls short. I'd like static orbit, but how do I justify the 3 talents (thanks for lowering that btw) for something that only scales with spell power and not crit? Torment the Weak is fantastic for my instant casts, but does absolutely nothing for seal of righteousness or any of my physical attacks. I also wish heroic strike or cleave didn't disable seals since

Tying in to the above you also feel very limited in RE choices, the only two that clearly screams hybrid are the forged weapons and the harbinger of flame/stormbringer and on it goes, yet the forged weapons don't scale with SP(?) and sure you could RE to increase the output of one of your damage sources, but not a single one is going to contribute more than 15% of your total damage, usually more in the 5-10% damage range, getting a 3% damage increase on Seals for 7% of your total damage doesn't offer much, really. Instead you're off looking for the odd ones out like stat % and what not, nothing screams "This RE is fantastic for your build!" like increased bloodthirst/whirlwind damage does for TG, Backstab REs for daggers, or Torment the Weak for mage casters.

I'm not a fan of the recent life tap changes, I realize why they were made and agree with in it in that sense, however the above build chugs mana, and you get absolutely squat of that variety if you want to get spell hit capped and still have enough strength/ap to make converting it even worthwhile through gear. So even with judgement of wisdom, Imp stormstrike, life tap it still runs dry. Previously you could spam 3 life taps in a row and be cozy at full mana while re-positioning during a fight or what-not, but not anymore, meaning you'd have to further invest talent points into thnigs like judgement of the pure, shamanistic rage and so on further diluting the available talent points for mana regeneration.

It would also be neat if there was some incentive on the physical side of things for going for the 17% spell hit cap, since you don't feel you get much out of hit after 8%.

 

Thanks for reading, peace and safety.

Pigy

Edited by pigy

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4 hours ago, SirGank said:

What? It will have a massive impact on balance, casters having the abilitys to holding a nerf mace and a claw of chrom? that's like giving them a permanent half flask of supreme power. Casters atm are in a pretty good position interms of dps, why would they need a big buff like this? we already have a problem with scaling why make it worse, the problem will double as naxx comes out.

No it wont. Thats like 100 bonus spell power in exchange for 20% haste or 2300 armor. Fair exchange imo. In fact 20% haste much more beneficial for many builds like dot builds or frost.

The better geared caster is the more impact haste has. So when Naxx comes out, haste will be even better choice over offhand weapon

Edited by mindw0rk

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4 hours ago, SirGank said:

What? It will have a massive impact on balance, casters having the abilitys to holding a nerf mace and a claw of chrom? that's like giving them a permanent half flask of supreme power. Casters atm are in a pretty good position interms of dps, why would they need a big buff like this? we already have a problem with scaling why make it worse, the problem will double as naxx comes out.

theyll lose the 20% haste passive if they decided to do that 4Head

And if they go Staff and nef mace in order to maintain the haste they had to go TG and are confronted with a 15% dmg penalty

 

Your argument is invalid :P

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1 minute ago, Peel2g said:

theyll lose the 20% haste passive if they decided to do that 4Head

And if they go Staff and nef mace in order to maintain the haste they had to go TG and are confronted with a 15% dmg penalty

 

Your argument is invalid :P

While i agree for caster dps.

 

Healers already abuse TG with staff+melee 1h offhand and healers are already a big problem, this will end up giving them something like 70-80 healing power.

 

I like the suggestions but only if healers get nerfed :/

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3 minutes ago, mecar said:

While i agree for caster dps.

 

Healers already abuse TG with staff+melee 1h offhand and healers are already a big problem, this will end up giving them something like 70-80 healing power.

 

I like the suggestions but only if healers get nerfed :/

They could just nerf TG for healers from 5% to 10% healing reduction

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1 minute ago, mindw0rk said:

They could just nerf TG for healers from 5% to 10% healing reduction

i like this idea ... this could solve the nurturing instinct problem at the the same without having to nerf the RE itself once again and punish dw agi melees simultaniously

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