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Billyww

Stealthout

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Posted (edited)

   This is a post to address my concerns about the Stealth ability. I hope it is seen as such and doesn't come off as just b****ing. I respect the devs on this game a lot and want everyone to know that right away.

  I have played for a good bit now. I have seen lots of changes and almost all have been leaps forward. I have one thing I do not under stand though. The website has the Stealth ability as "Last until canceled". In game however it is only 20 seconds long. I have no clue why it's only 20 seconds long though or why the website has a different way of marking it. I don't play continuously and have little gold. I am sure that goes for a lot of people in game. This should be fixed asap. This just made me use the hyper link to affix myself as a rogue without any ability to do anything rogue like.

   I would prefer to have an unlimited amount of time on my stealth though. The only thing ANY rogue like player will EVER have going for them is the limitless stealthing around to get that all important shot in. With a time crunch added it means pickpocket is useless as well as most all rogue stealth attacks. If it isn't fixed then it should have all rouge stealth attacks at 1SP to get so it's at least not as much of a drain for a short useless ability. I have always enjoyed rogues but 20 seconds is just asinine. It literally kills anyone being a rogue in any real since.

  Before anyone yells about "unfair" in the Hardcore server then just stop.I don't play on it at all. I don't want to. People can get stealth detection if they want to save them selves or even Second Wind, Blood craze or anything that allows for more DPS from attacks. Don't kill an entire spec just to get kids to stop crying about "fair" when they really just want to handy cap other gankers. The main point is that there are MANY way to mitigated damage from any type of attack. I don't believe that stopping others from being able to attack it's the right way to go about it.

 Lastly... That stupid Security Check is annoying AF....  I had to "reclick" it 4 times just to write this. That's way to fast. I try and put my thoughts together and BOOM... Security Check again.

Edited by Billyww

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Posted (edited)

With talents you get it to 45sec. And 45 seconds of stealth is enough. I haven't run out of stealth time playing my ambusher, there's little reason to stay in stealth for that long. Closing in for the kill doesn't take that long even without shadowstep. 

There is a problem with stealth CD though, it's simply way too long. I used to be able to grind mobs non-stop. 5 CP Ambush, evi, loot, restealth, lather, rinse, repeat - it all timed perfectly. Now having to wait a few extra seconds between restealths is really bloody annoying. Devs should add a RE that reduces Stealth CD.

Edited by Jandice Barov

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Jandice Barov said:

With talents you get it to 45sec

What talents would that be? I didn't see them.

 

5 hours ago, Jandice Barov said:

45 seconds of stealth is enough

   I am sorry but being a rogue in PVP can have someone enter the area when you are not looking that way and you will then NOT get the chance to stealth if you are needing to wait to use for the less then a minuet they give you. The pick pock quests are about going out and skulking through the shadows to collect badges or trinkets. Yes there are even rogue only quest for this.

   I know most people play this game very differently then me. I don't play the game to min/max ever aspect and go forth to fight only. I honestly enjoy hanging out with my wife doing quests or with my guild mates doing whatever. When I do play alone I will do random things like run through areas trying to find new things I never seen before just to see it. I hunt for new rares I have never seen before just to see them. I am not constantly trying to kill-loot-repeat. It's fine for anyone doing it. I know that is supposed to be what I do but I enjoy all the little things in the game and finding new little things to take in. Being a rogue is fun. Pick pocketing as many as I can before the finally catch me and then trying to get away. Stalking a person in a PVP map just to sap them and watch as they pop every cool down to try and pull you out of stealth before you can sap them again! You can't do all of that even with 45 seconds.

Edited by Billyww

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Posted (edited)

I never play stealth builds and I think stealth shouldn't have a timer. That's crazy! There is a way to make stealth last forever though. But I wont say how because I think limited stealth duration is stupid and because I never bothered to learn how. It does exist though and the devs cant fix it.

Edited by Hexent

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1 hour ago, Hexent said:

It does exist though and the devs cant fix it.

Well that is bug abuse and I'd suggest you report it rather than talking about it here. Abusing that could lead to a ban.

In terms of stealth, it has always been a somewhat problematic ability in high risk realms. I feel like permanent stealth is really cheesy I guess. I love the idea of rogues, and I think they still have more than enough potential even without permanent stealth. As Jandice said 45 seconds of stealth is enough to set up once you find someone, and go in for the kill. You can do your combo, use blind or something, restealth and then go again even with the 10 second CD. There are still abilities you can use to drop any DoTs etc you have on you and run to restealth if you really want to. It's just a little harder for people to play like that.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Tekkies said:

Well that is bug abuse and I'd suggest you report it rather than talking about it here. Abusing that could lead to a ban.

I don't bother reporting things I don't know how to do and don't know how the devs could find out how.

Edited by Hexent

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Tekkies said:

In terms of stealth, it has always been a somewhat problematic ability in high risk realms. I feel like permanent stealth is really cheesy I guess. I love the idea of rogues, and I think they still have more than enough potential even without permanent stealth. As Jandice said 45 seconds of stealth is enough to set up once you find someone

     As I said. With a time limit you can ONLY go in for someone when YOU are ready. Anything short of YOU being ready means you can't use it at all. That means there is no use for it in WPvP without even MORE of a talent and spell dump to use the ONE stealth. Without using Vanish from Subtlety (2 SP), Stealth from Subtlety (2 SP), Master Of Deception from Subtlety (5 TP) and at least Camouflage from the Subtlety (2 TP) then you will lose any chance at catching them. Being the aggressor means you have to catch someone off guard. Hard to do even in good conditions. If you are caught off guard then you will need vanish to even have a chance at using stealth and even then you most likely will have no way at getting set up in WPvP.

   With a time limit you have NO chance at being sneaky and no way at doing any pickpocket quests, sapping for CC or anything really. No other class what so ever has to dump that much power to be told f**k off and enjoy a stupidly small window to use it. No other class would be willing to drop that much potential into just getting close to another person. Even with all that SP and TP dumped it means you still only get close to someone and nothing is even added in power. I honestly feel that is a bridge too far to go for just keeping someone locked out of a class and I honestly feel this was a very bad call.

Edited by Billyww

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30 minutes ago, Billyww said:

 With a time limit you have NO chance at being sneaky and no way at doing any pickpocket quests, sapping for CC or anything really.

I just did LBRS junkbox run to see if I had no chance like you say and literally had no problems doing it. Well, besides usual quality of ascension NPC scripting, but that's a whole another can of worms. Haven't even used FD or Vanish since I always got to safe space to re-stealth with time to spare. If anything, it was actually quite fun to time everything right. Yeah limited stealth is absolutely bloody retarded lore and logic wise, but actual impact on the gameplay is minimal. 

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   I am not saying "no one can ever play it again". I am sure it will be ok (at best). The thing is that they have gotten rid of the fun side. Anyone could run into a simple area and do some simple things. I am sure even in a group you could sap a guy or two before it ends but if you are in a raid and need the sap it means getting it correct ASAP. If you have a "pat" or something then you will need to flee your setup or risk a bad pull. Try doing PVP though with a time crunch and people actively trying to draw you into a fight so you can't stealth. Try hardcore and see how many times people PST a warning to you that they are near. Try questing in a busy area in a map with the opposing faction running near you. There are more handy caps to the rogue build as it is with SP and TP sinks and to through a time crunch on top of it is a bad decision. That's my point. Not that "it will never be fun" but that it's too harsh to the players who really like it.

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5 hours ago, Billyww said:

   As I said. With a time limit you can ONLY go in for someone when YOU are ready. Anything short of YOU being ready means you can't use it at all. That means there is no use for it in WPvP without even MORE of a talent and spell dump to use the ONE stealth. Without using Vanish from Subtlety (2 SP), Stealth from Subtlety (2 SP), Master Of Deception from Subtlety (5 TP) and at least Camouflage from the Subtlety (2 TP) then you will lose any chance at catching them. Being the aggressor means you have to catch someone off guard. Hard to do even in good conditions. If you are caught off guard then you will need vanish to even have a chance at using stealth and even then you most likely will have no way at getting set up in WPvP.

You haven't read the changes...

 

MoD is 3 points

Camouflage is 3 points

45 seconds is MORE than enough to prepare to engage someone. You do not have to 'catch someone off guard' at all, you should be able to engage someone at any time, not just when they aren't ready. This a problem you have in yourself, you need to get used to engaging people who are ready, not just some random AoE farming in HG. 

5 hours ago, Billyww said:

If you are caught off guard then you will need vanish to even have a chance at using stealth and even then you most likely will have no way at getting set up in WPvP.

This has always been the case even when stealth was permanent, I don't see your point? 

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1 hour ago, Tekkies said:

MoD is 3 points

Camouflage is 3 points

  So it's down to 6 TP and 4 SP from 7 TP and 4 SP? Wow... what a change. Sorry but that still is a big sink. I want you to tell me who has to sink that much into a basic thing that doesn't even deal DMG? I want to know. 

 

1 hour ago, Tekkies said:

you should be able to engage someone at any time, not just when they aren't ready

   It's about MORE then just catching someone off guard. It's about a LOT of things. I am getting kind of tired of repeating that it encompasses a lot more then just sneak attacking. It's about getting away from others when you can, NPCs you don't want to fight and TUNS more. Read what all I have said. Not just a small part.

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Making stealth have a duration of any kind breaks the entire feel and fantasy of playing rogue. Period.
I love how jandice over here is going around "testing" stuff to proof a point about stealth being right the way it is now. It isn't and no amount of "testing" on your part can proof anything otherwise.

Can you imagine what would happen if blizzard would apply this to their live servers?

This change makes it seem like stealth was overpowered before, which it wasn't in any way. If anything the ability to use stealth was more of a gimp on the rogue's part. Yes, you can sneak around indefinitely. Yes, you can stalk prey and open when you feel the time is right. But what is the trade off here? OH right it's around 8/10 TE's, out of the 52 available? Players that didn't use stealth already had an advantage on any rogue simply because of the investment having to be made.

The devs made a terrible choice here, and it saddens me deeply. Loved this server to death.
 

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3 hours ago, Nickle said:

 It isn't and no amount of "testing" on your part can proof anything otherwise.

Rack off mate. This change had close to zero impact on actual stealthing. And it did absolutely nothing to alleviate the problem with stealth openers on LS. My [Certificate of Thievery] be damned, I still gank, still get away from retribution, still grind my Ravenhold rep bloody fine. For me, literally nothing changed besides having to spend 2 less talents on MoD, which is actually a net gain. 

If devs were actually smart about nerfing stealth they'll add a talent in surv tree to improve Flare. Something like 5 points, increases radius of the flare by 6 yards per point, reduces cooldown by 2 seconds per point. There, literal stealth killer with enourmos radius that you actually have to pay for. Pay less then you have to pay for passable stealth. Have to use it for effect. That's the prime example of what counterplay should be. On top of it since it affects anyone who enters the radius you'll get a early warning in combat log that someone's nearby. Implementing this will be really spiffy. 

But drongos gonna drongo and keep crying that "mum me got ganked pls ban stealtho", devs will keep listening to them instead of actually thinking with their head and rewarding smart plays, bad blood will flow, doomsayers will preach server death, etc etc. 

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Making stealth have a duration of any kind breaks the entire feel and fantasy of playing rogue. Period.

That's the biggest point that dude made though, and I agree.

 

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