Jump to content
itswicky

Dev Update #75

Recommended Posts

Hey there heroes! I'm back on the forums today to let you know what's been going on in the dev team and what our plans are moving forward! If you happened to catch the stream today, then there likely isn't any new information for you here, but for everyone else, I'm glad to be writing to you again and I hope you will be pleased to hear what we've been up to.

 

So first thing's first is to talk about what we've been hard at work on. Naxx development is still going strong! I don't have any specifics for you just yet, but we hope to have some content available to you guys for testing in the near future. The balance team has been hard at work monitoring the state of PvP and keeping up with the gaps that were created by the new 3 stack limit for random enchants. We've noticed spell power being a very strong option in PvP at the moment, whether for damage, sustain, or even playing tanky it has become apparent that casters and spell power tanks have become prominent in the meta. We'll be looking to make adjustments to sustain in PvP and looking to tone back how resilient tanks can be in PvP. Our other major objective is looking to see what new REs we can create and design in order to fill out some gaps in the new random enchant system and also use this as a way to potentially bring some power to builds which are lacking options when it comes to enchants.

 

Now I want to talk a little bit about our plans and goals moving forward. I can confidently say our primary objective at the moment is to tackle many outstanding issue on the bug tracker and improve the game at its core. We'll be looking to tackle some major and long standing bugs, including the way auras work on and pet behaviors on Ascension. We can't promise we'll be able to fix everything, but in the coming weeks we'll be looking to do as much as we are able to do, so keep an eye out on the changelog! Other than that we are continuing to move forward with work on Naxxramas and the balance team will be continuing to monitor the meta to see what changes need to be made.

 

Lastly I wanted to briefly update you guys on some of the things I'll be working on personally. I will be moving a bit of my time currently spent on balance work over to having more interaction with the community through the forums, in game, on stream, and in discord. I will also be starting to help prioritize the team and making sure we are all working as effectively and efficiently as possible. It will take a little time to complete the transition, but I'm both excited and looking forward to the changes to come. I'm hoping that I will be able to provide a strong direction for the team and that we will be able to provide a better quality experience because of it. 

 

Thanks so much for coming out to the forums and don't forget to leave a comment if you have anything you'd like to share with us! ❤️

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you take a second look at some of the nerfs done aswell for PVP?
(Melee hunter abilities xD)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, itswicky said:

We'll be looking to make adjustments to sustain in PvP and looking to tone back how resilient tanks can be in PvP.

Hang on, this can't be serious? Are you suggesting that you're gonna nerf sustain and tankiness even more, resulting in a meta that is even burstier than it is now? That might legit be the point that I quit the game. Please reconsider. PvP is already extremely CD-dependant and bursty to the point of barely requiring skill. It already feels like it's combining the worst part of blizzlike vanilla with some weird low level twink shit.

If you wanna nerf casters self-healing, nerf Surge of Light. Aside from that, it's honestly difficult to nerf the sustain that SP-geared casters get without it impacting other specs too.

A way better alternative would be to increase people's HP pools (perhaps make stamina-stacking interesting again by reverting nerfs to blood craze and second wind?), maybe buffing resilience and restoring the viability of sustain specs. The reasons tanks are outperforming other melee specs is because those other melee specs can't sustain anymore. Those other melee specs are what used to keep casters in check, and there was balance and harmony in the universe. (Sort of.) 

The problems you're seeing in the PvP meta are a result of previous PvP balance updates. Please don't screw things up even more while trying to fix it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, itswicky said:

We've noticed spell power being a very strong option in PvP at the moment, whether for damage, sustain, or even playing tanky it has become apparent that casters and spell power tanks have become prominent in the meta.

Ofc because int doesnt do anything, crit is to weak and does not scale with all spells and haste is not in game yet outside of talents. Which other stat than sp should casters aim for lmao?

1 hour ago, itswicky said:

We'll be looking to make adjustments to sustain in PvP and looking to tone back how resilient tanks can be in PvP.

meta is burst and cc not sustain and being resilent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I made a forum post about half a year ago imploring the balance team to stop nerfing way more than they buffed, since people generally get discouraged by having their builds nerfed and bored when there isn't anything new to explore.

If you go through the changelog since then you'll find that the nerf-to-buff ratio still leans heavily in favour of nerfs. I'd guess like 85% of changes were nerfs and 15% buffs (most of them to a limited amount of archetypes, like 2h tank). Can you elaborate a bit on what you feel is a healthy balance between nerfing and buffing? Is it something you're at all concerned with?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, omendog said:

If you go through the changelog since then you'll find that the nerf-to-buff ratio still leans heavily in favour of nerfs. I'd guess like 85% of changes were nerfs and 15% buffs (most of them to a limited amount of archetypes, like 2h tank). Can you elaborate a bit on what you feel is a healthy balance between nerfing and buffing? Is it something you're at all concerned with?

I'd say that might be true if you look at the last 30 days on the changelog, but I would heavily disagree on that point over the last 6 months. I would say we are definitely concerned with players perception and how they feel about changes. That said, we understand with the start of Season 2 that if we were to keep any level of players around that we would need to reduce the gross level of powers players were given. We still feel that overall player power is likely a bit high, but not anywhere like it was before the start of the current season, so we'll likely begin to see a bit more a transition to a more healthy balance between buffing and nerfing moving forward. Again, we do feel it was absolutely necessary to bring down player level even if that meant upsetting some of our players. We hope that our foundations that balance is built on is much stronger now moving forward and will give us more leeway to make the game more balance and a more enjoyable experience. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, off the top of my head here are 10 nerfs from that period I wouldn't call minor:
(Please note: I am not saying that these nerfs weren't good for balance, I'm just saying they were big nerfs)


1. Melee (agi/sheath of light) sustain is completely dead 
2. 2h judgement burst specs are dead
3. Deadly brew 20y range basically killed hunters in PvP. Explo shot not proccing poisons was the final nail in the coffin.
4. TG has been incredibly nerfed
5. Ambush specs are nearly completely gone
6. Hunter pets have been gutted
7. Metamorphosis/felguard has been obliterated
8. Arcane Barrage was killed
9. Prayer of Healing is dead
10. Polymorph and Fear share DRs

That's ten major nerfs. If you can list even five simiarly major buffs, I will eat my hat.

To help you get started, I can think of: Melee hunters and 2h arms. Both of those specs were in their prime comparable to the ones I listed.

... but they have subsequently been nerfed pretty heavily and aren't dominant anymore. I guess that makes 12 major nerfs, and 2 buffs. Do you still stand by the statement that nerfs and buffs were pretty balanced? Help me understand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@itswicky

I agree completely with @omendog

Stop nerfing everything at the top and start buffing builds at the bottom
You can create balance with buffs just as much as nerfs yet one option doesn't suck the fun out of it.

An increased Health pool is seriously needed.
Unless your playing a sustain tank, PvP exchanges last around 3 GCD's
Which makes it a damage race that favors burst, no wounder there is always sustained tanks in the meta.

Before this it was Nurturing Instincts, we will keep finding another way, just because we don't all want to be in a damage race.
I'm gonna call it the next sustained Meta will focus on using CC into healing rather than using mitigation, 
So you will nerf CC, then we shall find a new way to sustain, see the problem ? 

Here is the sustain meta history and future:

1. Stamina - Second Wind, Blood Craze, Judgement & Bloodthirst
2. Nurturing Instincts - Insane healing spell power
3. Hybrid Tanks (Current) - Hybrid gear & Mitigation 
4. Control and Heal (Future) - Spamming every CC DR's into Healing
5. Healer - Pure healing builds will pick up some damage AP's
6. We give up and join the damage race of 2-3 GCD exchanges

Just increase the Health pool and buff the damage of all non meta builds 

Problem solved. 

 

Edited by Ashsj1992

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Ashsj1992 said:

Stop nerfing everything at the top and start buffing the builds that are at the bottom

Ideally we're doing a bit of both to help close the gap, but recently we decided that for our game to better retain new players, we had to make some semi-drastic changes to balance and the amount of power players had available to them. Previously we saw a lot of people hit 60, go do some PvP, then quit. Now, that still happens to some degree, but with the changes we made this is happening less and less. We are aware that these changes are a little harder on our veteran players, which most of you on the forums are, but we really need to do some serious work on things to make sure we're keeping our new players in game. Otherwise there will be no one for our veterans to play with. I know this can be a bit frustrating, trust me I really do, but we just ask that you guys bear with us and be patient, as you always have been, and we promise to do our best to get you guys new players and a more stable game/meta.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@itswicky

That's overscaling for ya
However as soon as new tier gear gets in are bags new players will feel weak regardless of build.

If helping new players is the main focus then why allow raids and access to top end gear on LS ?
new players in T1 Vs Vet's in BiS, the build itself is going to have no effect on the outcome. 

In terms of build power and gear there is little difference, There is the real issue and the value of gear is only increasing. 

If you want new players to compete with veterans and not feel useless, throw Gear and RE's at them.

Edited by Ashsj1992

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Throwing gear at everyone never helped. Its way better to make gear more accessible. 

Theres 3 ways to achieve that while maintaining a bit of effort into obtaining good gear. 

 

1) Release AQ gear in the World. (Exception Cthun loottable) 

2) release the HW weapons and have CTA be permanent for easier Honor gains 

3) Make Raids substantionly more easy in order to get more casual oriented guilds into them without burning them out at the first Boss (Skeram is a Monster mechanically) 

 

^ above Suggestions are made for LS 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

more accessible is exactly what i meant,
Although the AQ gear being released will only widen the gap for new players regardless. 
Can't be helped now i guess. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

please don't nerf shit to the ground.. why not balance instead... don't nerf shit to the ground like you always doo.. it takes builds away from us.. especially TG.. that one hurt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also can we look at all the CC people have to spam Holy fire and just nuke people down? instead of always focusing on melee builds!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, OneForAll said:

without sustain bleeds/stealth ambush classes are gonna be superior again

Dude I don't even know where to start. At no point were bleed/stealth builds superior at all. Viable at best.  The only time ambush builds were good is when they were oneshotting. And how is sustain involved in that?

If they became more viable why would that be an issue? They are not very good right now. 

 

1 hour ago, OneForAll said:

Also can we look at all the CC people have to spam Holy fire and just nuke people down? instead of always focusing on melee builds!

Did Wicky say he will focus on melee builds? Judging from his post it seems the focus lies on spellpower, caster sustain and spellpower tanks. I don't see any melee nerfs mentioned. 

 

1 hour ago, OneForAll said:

please don't nerf shit to the ground.. why not balance instead... don't nerf shit to the ground like you always doo.. it takes builds away from us.. especially TG.. that one hurt.

How is TG taken away? It is still among the top melee builds. 

When has anything ever been nerfed to the ground? Can you give one specific example? Not even agi sustain is dead. People still play that shit and heal for stupid amounts. 

Edited by Mikkiller93

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mikkiller93 said:
Quote

How is TG taken away? It is still among the top melee builds. 

When has anything ever been nerfed to the ground? Can you give one specific example? Not even agi sustain is dead. People still play that shit and heal for stupid amounts

you need BiS to even dominate as TG :/ or do good.. tbh lol and he didnt say anything about  holy fire tho

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear players above - are we all playing an ascension? Are you all from Badscalp or something? These "points" - where do they come from?
And I really wish I didn't reset recount every couple of days so that I could pull up more screens. It's hard to prove points without actual proof.

1) PoH dead? I'm playing it. Yesterday had a full BWL and we had time for half of Temple. 47% of all healing not counting absorbs.
proof => http://joxi.ru/Y2Lk8owt77kE5m 
I really liked the RE stack limit here - the real nerf is the mana-side of PoH. Previsously, i did not go oom at all, and I did not use Life Tap. Now, I can't just sit and spam.

2) Melee sustain dead? That's why these players still are on top of the food chain? 

3) Metamorph and felguard killed? Felguard's AAs for 1k noncrit vs 7k armor in pvp is bad? Huntank's Felguard is a better player than some out there.

4) Poly and fear share cd? How is that bad? I'm sorry for being rude but are the complaints coming from those people who have no balls and cast fear 6-7 times in a row?
If you genuinely think casting fear-poly-fear-poly-fear-fear-poly is ok - put me on ignore and never talk to me.
Poly was "strong but ok" in wow because of class limitations, on ascension - it's pure cancer. 

5) TG dead? Killing 80% of players in 5 seconds and not 6 is not dead. Sometimes you don't even have time to target the player Naks charged. But then again, he probably has /played 1 year so...

6) Increased health pool? There is no reason for that. Put stats into stam, get stam enchants, ZG stam enchants, good stam PVP gear, some protective talents and you're good. I can't say for the people above, but I really enjoy reading in-game comments from 4k hp glass canons that they are getting 2shot. I've got 150 stat points in stam, 2% stats RE, and I run Blessing of Kings. No other % increases and i have 7865 HP, and it feels enough.  

 

I feel like the real issue of all of the above complaints is gear and RE's, not the builds and balance. If you have BiS gear and RE's you must obliterate a fresh green-blue 60, and be relatively stronger that a medium-geared player. Otherwise what's the point of it all? I play only one character, /played is 48+, I have 1 pvp and 1 pve spec, I have tinkered with them for a very long time, I have spreadsheets, and I spend time learning stuff like https://goo.gl/Wj5wNd. I should, in all possible ways, be way stronger than a fresh player, or a veteran who is using all resources among 3-4 characters with different specs.


We don't have enough of fresh-medium players to balance things out. With the current state we do have a bit more fresh players, but its not substantial. When there will be a good pop, and both sides of WSG have 4-5 trash, 2-3 medium geared and 2-3 monsters - then things will be way more enjoyable. Whereas now, in 90% of cases its 3 monsters, 1 medium geared and 1 newbie.

 

And dear devs, overall, I must say I do agree with most balance changes, even with those that hit my spec specifically. Some are really weird, and I don't understand - like the Shield of Templar RE change. Also, I've just finished watching the stream. Finally some love for healers. Its good that priest single-heals are getting attention, they were on a weaker side for a while. I liked Divine Litany and Faith in the Light. When they come out I will definetely try to implement them in my build. 

Thanks for your work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Mikkiller93 said:

When has anything ever been nerfed to the ground? Can you give one specific example? Not even agi sustain is dead. People still play that shit and heal for stupid amounts. 

Edited 6 hours ago by Mikkiller93

Can you name someone? Ive yet to meet one on BS... actually curious 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Hysteria said:

Metamorph and felguard killed? Felguard's AAs for 1k noncrit vs 7k armor in pvp is bad? Huntank's Felguard is a better player than some out there.

As someone who played a Felguard oriented build for over 8 months, I can say with 100% certainty that the viability the build once had in PvE is now gone. This is speaking from an Andorhal PvE perspective of course because PvP on these servers is shit, but the 3 stacking RE change completely and utterly ruined any chance of using a build involving a fuckstrong Felguard in raid for dps.

My poor Felguard, Haathun, had his ballsack ripped off and thrown into an incinerator on account of this change (everyone please say a prayer for my former companion's manhood). Without any new REs being added I don't see any possibility at all for him to get a new pair of nads.

 

Also

13 hours ago, omendog said:

9. Prayer of Healing is dead

Fricking LOL tbh fam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of the things people claim are so out of place it's hard to believe you're talking about the same game....

Not gonna talk from a PVE perspective because I have no idea, so this will be strictly PVP.


2. 2h judgement burst specs are dead

Nope, they just dont depend on a single freaking spell anymore to do damage, but this spec is still incredibly strong.


4. TG has been incredibly nerfed

Still one of the best builds out there by far, and one that takes little skill to execute properly too, because its cooldowns are so strong and hard to counter.


5. Ambush specs are nearly completely gone

They're sort of not, though I agree that the emergence of very tanky high sustained builds that take little to no skill to be played hurt ambush a lot


7. Metamorphosis/felguard has been obliterated

Its in a good place imo, its still really strong (nowhere near what it used to be, but then again it was ridiculous)


8. Arcane Barrage was killed

Arcane is still very strong, the power has just been moved to other spells (starfall, arcane missiles, starfire to some extent)

 

 

I dont think surge of light is the culprit in any way either, the strongest caster builds atm do not rely on crit anyways (frostbolt, dots etc). I feel like "unkillable" builds are not particularly fun to play against, but they are balanced in their own ways, because they can hardly kill any decent player either. Mostly, they're frustrating to play against.

Melees do have it harder then casters for sustain, that is true, but did you ever play regular wow? Of course an ele shaman is gonna have more sustain then an arms warrior, I don't really know how that surprises you. Healing reduction is king on Ascension, it always was.
I just feel like it should be taken away from casters via dumb mechanics (ignite, frost debuffs, and mind blast), and be forced into aimed shot or other mechanics, forcing casters to invest into it and actively use it.

What melees lack in sustain, they make up for it in in "inyourfaceness" making it hard to setup against when you run into silence > bladestorm > killing spree > beastial wrath etc.
Sure you die quicker in most scenarios, but theres a price to pay.

Full instant cast casters with too much sustain (im looking at you, dotters) is my biggest concern, because they kind of combine damage, sustain and mobility with little counterplay to it.

While the meta is far from perfect, and frankly not that enjoyable to play against, its in a far better place then it used to be, and clearly not as bad as you depict it.

Edited by Madguyver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Hysteria

"Put stats into stam, get stam enchants, ZG stam enchants, good stam PVP gear, some protective talents and you're good. "

No.  This is terrible advice and i can debate this with you to the end of time if necessary.

In 99% of builds at no point does Stamina become more valuable than AP, fact by simple maths. 
Even if the Health pool is contributing to the problem, AP value for damage is currently far higher.
As for mitigation, Only builds that should find enough value in this is Sustained Tanks/Healers
Every over build should focus on Burst, CC, Healing and just general GCD value.

let me log on Warmane and compete with a Rogue stacked with stamina gems, enchants and parry talents because warriors can kill me to fast haha.  No.

Edited by Ashsj1992

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kinda disappointed to see people nitpicking at my choice of words or misconstruing what I said instead of actually engaging in a discussion. In case anyone missed it (even though I pointed it out), I never said that the nerfs I listed weren't warranted -- I just said that they were significant nerfs. I actually do agree with most of them, but what I was trying to highlight is the nerf-to-buff ratio, which in my view is a huge concern. I'm even more concerned now that it seems that Itswicky is unaware of it.

It's good to hear at least that the devs have some kind of vague ambition to both nerf and buff. I look forward to the day when a changelog is posted that actually reflects that.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Project Ascension

Embark onto Azeroth like never before, as you create and play the hero of your dreams.

Ascension Facebook Ascension Twitter Ascension Discord Ascension YouTube Ascension VK
×

Important Information

By using this site, you confirm you are 18 or older and agree to ourTerms of Use.